Quick Questions on Possible Typos

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WMGimp
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Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby WMGimp » Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:52 pm

Loving the game, and especially loveing the campaign systems and Talent Trees. Going over the character stats, however, I came upon a few things I would like clarified.

The Senior East-Meg Judge on page 158 is listed as having ten Hits as a level Eight character, as are the Senior Jusge and Senior Brit-Cit Judge on the same page. The other two both have Academy Star that matches the character advacement progression to give them an extra Hit, but the East-Meg Judge does not. Should the Senior East-Meg Judge only have nine Hits? I expect it should be only nine Hits, but wanted to be sure.

Weapons, Armour, and other gear are all listed under the same heading as Equipment, but sometimes referenced as Weapons, Armour, and Equipment. When a Werewolf loses all Weapons and Equipment, as noted on page 160, does it get to keep whatever Armour it was wearing, or does it lose everything as it morphs into a completely different body shape? I would expect it to lose everything, and only retain a natural Armour +3, but it isn't completely clear as written.

The Judge Child on page 164 has a couple of issues. He is listed as having Lightweight Armour, but has an Armour Stat of 0. Is all, or part of the equipment he is listed with (Boot Knife, Handgun, and Leightweight Armour) not supposed to be there? The handgun and boot knife are good to have with there being no other specific weapon or Talent attack capabilities, but the model certainly doesn't look like he is wearing any armour.

Continuing with The Judge Child, he is listed as having Psi 24, but is only a Level 5 character, that would normally only have Psi 12 with his Talents added in. As a special case, he could be an exception to the normal rules, but it would be nice to have that clarified, as it would make advancement, if he became a permanent member of a Force, questionable. If he starts at Level 5 with 24 Psi, should he be gaining more per level gained then listed on the advancement chart? The greater capability over the first five levels would suggest he should continue to advance more rapidly.

Sabbat, on page 700, fits a Level 22 character in everything but Hits. His past could easily have him reduced to only eleven Hits at Level 22, but normal advancement would have him at Hits 23. Is he supposed to start with so few Hits? If so, like The Judge Child's Psi potential, should he have a different advancement scheme for his remaining few levels if he becomes a permanent member of a Force?
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby WMGimp » Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:18 am

Some more questions, now from the Vehicles Rules:
The Control Loss result from the Critical Hit Table specifies a vehicle moves forward half its Move, turns, and then continues to Move the rest of its Move value. How far does it have to turn when it turns? Most vehicles can only turn 45 degrees, but those with Agility +3 or more can turn 90 degress, and bikes have no limit. No turn amount is specified.

Crew for vehicles is listed as a number, but are the vehicles considered to be equipped with any crew when purchased? Bikes are specifically listed at their separate cost when purchased for a character, so it is clear they come with no crew, but what about all of the others? A Manta Prowl Tank having to buy eleven Judges to crew it becomes a very expensive model, as even crewing it full of Rookie Judges would add 825 points and boost the total to 1725.

Not having Crew included would solve one other question: if crew were to come included, there are no Shoot values listed for the vehicles, so what value would be used? Having to buy a crew gives specific Shoot values for each weapon. That leaves a separate issue, in that an Advanced Autopilot allows a vehicle to Move and Shoot each turn by itself, so long as there is a friendly model still on the table. What is the Shoot value for the Advanced Autopilot? Using the friendly model's Shoot value makes no sense, as that model is not spending any effort to actually control the vehicle.

It was specified in the FAQ that even Zombies can drive vehicles, and I do like that idea, but what happens when the Driver has far worse stats than the vehicle they are driving during combat? A Zombie has Agility -2, but mounted on a Satayama Hammerhead, that Agility increases to +4. That turns a Zombie from an easy target into something tough for good shooters.
The Swerve Talent allows a Judge to use their Agility rather than the Lawmaster's, but until the Judge gets higher than Agility +2, that does no good, and for models riding the better bikes, the bikes' Agility will beat theirs far longer. Should a Driver have to use the lower of their or their vehicle's Agility, or should they be able to get an Agility boost simply by jumping in the Driver's seat?
A Punk Hero riding a Satayama Hammerhead, carrying a Laser Pistol, and putting both their initial stat points into Shoot is Agility +4, Shoot +2, can't be attacked by most models in melee so long as they Move 10"+ in a turn, and carry a significant edge on a Street Judge that costs only five points more.

Continuing with Zombies as Drivers, how do the rules for destroyed vehicles resolve with Zombies?
Zombies have no Hits, so does the basic D5 Hits for a destroyed vehicle roll as a Damage 5 weapon, add the dice together as with a Ram, or do something else like simply roll 5 dice looking for any tens?
A Boom! result on the Critical Hit Table specifies rolling dice equal to the vehicle's Hits, with a Hit lost for every die that scores a 6+. Again, does a Zombie face a roll as if with a weapon using Damage equal to the vehicle's Hits (doubled due to the explosion?), added dice as with a Ram, vehicle Hits dice looking for tens, or what?

On a secondary note, I really like the look of the concept art for the Pat Wagon MkIV, but don't see how it matches the listed weapons. The front mount street cannon is fine, but there are two pintle mount weapons facing front and rear (with the possible consideration of the pintle mounts as 360 degree capable). The vehicle is listed as having a front mount street cannon, and side mounts of either stumm gas dispensors or riot foam jets. The two pintle mounts look like the mount that would have to be the street cannon on the Pat Wagon MkIII. Is the picture of a different vehicle, or simply something cool looking that doesn't match its game description?
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby Curufea » Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:42 am

For the >45 degree turning vehicles, I'd randomly roll for multiples of 45 degrees with Control Loss.
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby Greg Smith » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:49 am

You do have to buy crew for vehicles.

Conversely, you buy vehicles for your gang.

Yes, the Manta is expensive. You could run it undercrewed though.
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby WMGimp » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:12 pm

Continuing with oddities, here's a simple one it would be nice to have an official answer on:
Judge Dredd on page 165 has the Dual Shooter Talent, but only one pistol, and no option given to allow him an extra Lawgiver.

The rules specify Justice Department listings cannot be given options that are not listed in their entry other than cybernetics when they have been injured, but Judge Dredd is a hero form of Street Judge, and is listed with an otherwise useless Talent.

Can Judge Dredd be given an extra Lawgiver so he can use his Dual Shooter talent, or is the Telent entry wasted for the character for game purposes?
If he can take an additional pistol, does he pay the 25 credits extra as a normal Street Judge, or something different?
I would expect only 25 credits, as a normal Street Judge advanced to level 20 would pay no more for the option, but with it not being specified as allowed, it would be good to be sure.

If Judge Dredd is to be considered a Street Judge for purposes of using Dual Shooter with a second Lawgiver, can he also take any of the other options for a Street Judge?
While I might expect a Flying Squad Judge to need extra training (and I have not been able to read enough Judge Dredd to know if he has such training), the other weapon options for Street Judges would make good sense. He could be carrying the scattergun from his Lawmaster, and it would take little more to understand him carrying a Lawrod, Widowmaker, or Stub Gun.
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby WMGimp » Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:19 pm

Greg Smith wrote:You do have to buy crew for vehicles.

Conversely, you buy vehicles for your gang.

Yes, the Manta is expensive. You could run it undercrewed though.
While you can run a vehicle undercrewed, and that might make sense for a Street Gang, it doesn't really make sense for a Justice Depertment vehicle. They would have a full crew assigned to the vehicle, and would know it was foolish to field it undercrewed for no reason.

While a special scenario could excuse fielding it undercrewed (training new drivers, breaking in a brand new vehicle, etc, in what was thought to be a 'safe' zone), it would make no sense to field it undercrewed otherwise. Especially not on the street where it could expect combat.

They don't rush tanks into combat without enough crew to man them. They're too expensive to risk that way.
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby WMGimp » Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:51 pm

Continuing with oddities, we come upon the Werewolf.
The Werewolf rules specify any Infantry model in a force with Werewolf in its Mercenaries listing may become infected and become a Werewolf for that force.
Street Gangs are listed as allowing Werewolves, but also have some interesting options in Infantry models to infect:
Klegg
Klegghound
Robodoc
Robodog
Travis Perkins
That's two alien werewolves, two robotic werewolves, and one gorilla werewolf.

Most of the other Werewolf lists don't go any further, until you get to the Demonic Cabal list, where all of the Demonic Pacts are listed as Infantry models.
A Major Demonic Pact Werewolf is an interesting addition to the list of oddities allowed as the Werewolf rules are written. The reduction in Will actually makes it even more tempting.

Demonic Pacts add another interesting wrinkle, as any for with a psyker using the right Talents can summon them. While I would not allow a player to summon a Werewolf Demonic Pact, the rules are rather fuzzy on whether that would be official. You pay extra points for a Werewolf that is a part of your force, but that does not mean a player could not pay the points for a summoned Infantry model as things are written. A fuzzy and questionable point, but I've seen plenty of players that would try to take advantage of that wording.

For an official FAQ style question: are any Infantry models in a force allowed Werewolves allowed to be infected, or only actual human, or mutant human, Infantry models?
I certainly expect the latter option is the official ruling, but it would be nice to have it official.
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby Lovejoy » Fri Feb 28, 2014 12:34 am

I think if you are playing the type of gamey people who expect robodog werewolves and demon werewolves to be allowed just because they can exploit vague wordings, it's time to find other players! :D
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby Curufea » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:04 pm

It's not a legal document - the writers should not be expected to meet expectations other than common sense.
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby Dai-Mongar » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:42 pm

Actually, a Gorilla werewolf sounds awesome.
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby Curufea » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:49 pm

It wouldn't be a werewolf though, as "were" refers to a human (in Old English). Sadly they never encountered gorillas (Greek word), so we have no idea what word they would have used :)
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby Dai-Mongar » Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:51 am

I think you'd call him "sir".
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby WMGimp » Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:24 am

The various 'were' options are rather odd, with the 'were' option on the gorilla being one of my lesser concerns. 'Were' robots are where it gets really strange for me, whether they are as awesome as a 'were'-gorilla or not.

It goes part and parcel with some of my other questions: the rules do not have clarification where clarification would be good, and would maintain a higher level of sense for the rules. A 'were'-robodoc would not be a serious combat monster, but the fact that the unit is possible as the rules are worded is a problem that should be addressed. A 'were;-Klegg is a different problem, and still allowed as listed in the rules.
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby Lovejoy » Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:07 am

Just because you can technically do it because of the wording, doesn't mean it's intended. What happened to common sense? Can a robot be infected by a biological organism? Of course not.
I think this is one of the areas in which certain gamers differ. I have found that some gamers I know follow the letter of the rules but also look for exploits to break the game. It's not exclusively the Americans I know, but often it is. It seems to be more acceptable culturally stateside because of higher level of competitiveness - "it doesn't say I can't!" is a phrase I hear regularly. Fair enough, but I don't think this is a tournament game exactly...
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby Curufea » Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:15 pm

True - and pretty much if you're the kind of gamer that would have robots turn into werewolves just because it's inferred in the rules and not explicitly denied - I would NEVER play with you in any kind of game. Be it Judge Dredd, any other wargame, any board, card or roleplaying game.

Because that kind of gamer is breaking the traditional social contract of gaming.
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Re: Quick Questions on Possible Typos

Postby twrchtrwyth » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:02 am

As I understand it, werewolf is available as an upgrade for units in the Force list and not available for mercenaries.

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