Future of 2000AD Gaming

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
msprange
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Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby msprange » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:26 pm

So, there we were, chatting to the 2000AD guys about future miniatures games/products...

We went through the obvious (which comic strips to launch into next, etc), but something else popped up that I wanted to run past you chaps, to see if there would be any interest.

Now, let me caveat all of this by saying that these are long term plans and we are going to do no more than think about them this year. If we go ahead, if there is enough interest from you chaps, we may start in 2014, and there may be no product until early 2015. But we figure it is worth starting the conversation now.

This is the idea...

We do another Dredd Kickstarter. It has to be a Kickstarter, as the scope of this project is far larger and much more resource intense than anything we have attempted on this line before.

We begin by doing a Kickstarter for a set of Mega-City One Judges - as multi-part, multi-pose plastics. The first stretch goal (which will be some distance - plastics are very expensive) will bring into being a set of multi-part, multi-pose Sov Judges. The second stretch goal will create a rulebook and a box set to put all of this stuff in.

At that point, we will have ourselves the Judge Dredd: Apocalypse War boxed game. Using the same rules as Rogue Trooper (though expanded from their current form), you will be able to use just about all of your current Dredd models from the outset, but in a larger scale wargame, backed up by plastic judges on both sides.

Further stretch goals will add plastic sentenoids, Citi-Def, street punks, and plastic or resin Rad Sweepers and other heavy vehicles/emplacements.

The game will ultimately allow you to fight any large scale conflict in the Dredd universe, from the Apocalypse War to Judgement Day, and anything in-between (the Food Riots would be interesting, to sat the least :)).

So, the big question...

Is this something we should even be thinking about? Or is Dredd best left as a skirmish/campaign level game?
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby cfirpi » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:47 pm

This is an awesome idea. Personally I would invest in it.
Logically thinking, I'm not too sure it would stand up against the innumerable number of large scale war games already out there.
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby Doctor-Warlock » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:52 pm

Add me to the list of Interested as well.
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby Ben2 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:48 pm

I'd be in for this.

I was going to pester you about more Sov judge and Sentinoid poses anyway next time I saw you, as well as chew over a couple of ideas for Sov units for the apocalypse war.

Gap of a few months to allow people to get the last of the Dredd and the Rogue trooper stuff.

I'd also say go into the kickstarter with concept art/3D renders/greens done. I think the lesson from the Gates of Antares and Rogue trooper kickstarter is the need for physical models/renders/greens to show people to generate word of mouth and to get money coming out of pockets.

Kickstarter is a great tool to essentially generate pre-orders, and CMON has had massive success with the marketing aspect.

I'd throw some brains at ways to generate maximum impact regarding another Dredd kickstarter. I'd look at recruiting some marketing champions to be putting up painted models, armies etc at the same time as the kickstarter was running (as well as a battle report or two, video of an example turn would be one way of doing it).

I'd look at identifying a few models you definitely want to do and getting some promos cast up before the kickstarter begins to distribute to people.

Basically a great idea and I think heavier marketing is needed to get those pledges in and held at high levels.
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby Fattdex » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:56 pm

Might be a bit of over reach. Collecting a large amount of figs for mass battle games is a big commitment, and the forces available for dredd are somewhat limited in comparison to other large battle type of games. Dont get me wrong, plastic judges would be killer. But, given there are already complete ranges and rules for players to use, if they wanted to play apocalypse war games- well, by 2015, i would have thought they'd have done so already. I like the skirmish/campaign sytem in relation to dredd and what you have with block war has extendd it very well to cater for those who want to go big with the game i think (as well as the dredd chapter in rogue trooper)

If we are spitballing here on future dredd gaming, if your license extends to likenesses from the dredd 3d film, if you create a set of judges and punks in a realistic sculpt style like that you would probably have some more buy ins! Some folks are just not a fan of the toonish style of the dredd minis range (i personally am a fan), an alternative line of minis recreating the look of the film would go a long way with some people. I am thinking along the lines of what knight models have done, they have the arkham asylum range for their game, and also have alternative dark knight movie versions. everyone's a winner. Just justice department and street punks is enough to get some great block war action going. If they happened to be modular sets, even better.
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby tnjrp » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:56 pm

I wouldn't mind getting a few plastic scifi minis. Real plastic mind you, not keen enough on "restic" that I'd be likely to invest but then again that doesn't seem to be what we are talking about here.

But. The first JD KS went very well. The Rogue Trooper one got hit by an onset of "pledge, then withdraw" (that probably just killed another scifi KS) but didn't do too badly in the end. I think the next KS, whatever it is, should have a good deal of preparation going into it 'cuz a lot of people I think see KS as a glorified preorder system ("glorified" in the sense that they expect tons of cheap minis and freebies) and won't necessarily be content with just CAD renders of the possibly-up-and-coming stuff. That means taking risks, possibly considerable risks as per the price of tooling "hard plastic" molds.
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby chaoschild » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:23 pm

Definitely interested, just not anytime this year please. Wallet needs a chance to recover.
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby Darren-S-Bird » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:34 pm

I am definitely interested - but I'm pre-sold on the idea as a wargamer that is also a Judge Dredd fan, especially if it's compatible with the Judge Dredd miniatures I already have.

I think there is some definite potential there as well for a mass market game that could be sold in high-street retail chains - remember that's how games workshop originally got to be market leader.

Maybe you should think about a 'bare-bones' kickstarter version without any fancy packaging just shipped in a plain cardboard box, and if that did really well and funded all the development costs think about a retail box version with nice 2000ad or film artwork later. If you managed to get something like that in Argos just as a sequel film came out you could have a real winner on your hands.

But to get the initial backing on Kickstarter people will want to see photos of some actual models before they pledged. I think the Antares Kickstarter showed that most people want to see more than concept artwork of models before committing their money to a project. But Antarres did also get a lot of backing, so there's a market out there for something like this if done right.

I hope if you do decide to do something like this that it's a great success.
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby steelbrok » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:54 pm

Do you mean pre-painted plastic minatures (like the modern Battlefield Evolution figures)?

For someone like me who isn't really into the painting scene this would be a bonus
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby judgedoug » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:34 pm

msprange wrote:So, there we were, chatting to the 2000AD guys about future miniatures games/products...
We begin by doing a Kickstarter for a set of Mega-City One Judges - as multi-part, multi-pose plastics. The first stretch goal (which will be some distance - plastics are very expensive) will bring into being a set of multi-part, multi-pose Sov Judges. The second stretch goal will create a rulebook and a box set to put all of this stuff in.
Further stretch goals will add plastic sentenoids, Citi-Def, street punks, and plastic or resin Rad Sweepers and other heavy vehicles/emplacements.
The game will ultimately allow you to fight any large scale conflict in the Dredd universe, from the Apocalypse War to Judgement Day,
I hope you were thinking of my lovely mug while you were discussing it as I've been saying this for I don't know how long. Our conversation on Dakka went something like this:
me on DakkaDakka 2013/02/20 12:40:17 wrote:"I have a firm belief that if you partnered with Wargames Factory to do CAD-designed multipart plastic miniatures of Citi-def, East-Meg Sovs, and MC-1 Judges (say $10,000 per 5-man sprue to manufacture) you would have them funded within the first day of a Kickstarter. Stretch goals could include CAD-designed plastic vehicles, plastic MC-1 civilians/gangers, and perhaps plastic MC-1 zombie set (for Judgement Day/etc). "
Matthew Sprange wrote:That is an interesting idea, though I am not sure it would be as easy to fund as you suggest Certainly something worthy of consideration in the future though.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/po ... ge#5307702

:P

That being said, I'd be first on board for playtesting.

Apocalypse War, while being the main thrust for me personally, doesn't have to be it. You could include army lists for:

Justice Department (anything and The Day The Law Died)
Citi-Def (Block War & Apocalypse War & Day of Chaos)
Robots (Robot War and Second Robot War)
Dark Justice Department (mind-controlled Necropolis)
Sov Justice Department (Apocalypse War)
Zombies (Judgement Day)
etc, etc.
- Doug
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby Greg Smith » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:36 pm

So there would be two sides? Sov and MC-1. Wasn't that a problem for Starship Troopers?

Rogue Trooper didn't generate much enthusiam amongst our group, because it was a game of two very similar forces fighting one another. This could be the same.

I love the SST game, but part of the fun was pitting two very different forces against one another. Two very similar forces is less interesting.

And I found Wargames Factory zombie vixens quite poor, so please don't use them.
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby Ben2 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:24 pm

While it would be great starting with Sovs and Judges, Greg is right that they are very similar forces on the face of it.

However you can create differentiation, and Rad Sweepers and Sentinoid squads vs Patwagons and Lawmaster judges would do that a bit.

I would recommend adding some sort of less elite option to the Sov side, to balance Citi-Def and gangers. Robot troops? Collaborators? Or keep Sovs elite (add heavy sentinoids?) and have MC-1 be the horde option?

I'd also recommend having options for zombie horde, block wars, klegg mercenary forces and robot troops as well.
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby shiba-tenchi » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:30 am

Speaking fairly directly, I think you guys just rolled the KS dice on your best prospect for a mass combat game in the 2000AD world, and the market gave you pretty clear feedback. I also think you'd need to be far more successful than even the Dredd KS to fund a big box game full of multi-pose plastic troops. The KS would have to be extraordinarily a) well managed, b) well publicised, c) well received and d) generous. As noted by many KS analysts, the KS campaigns that succeed are the ones that are already almost fully realised, with a good deal of final product to show the punters. I suspect you'd risk taking a decent financial bath to get it off the ground.

I think you have a rich background eminently suitable for the skirmish level wargame, and a ton of untapped potential still to be realised. If I were you I would be pitching future KS campaigns to cash in on the huge success of Dredd (both setting and system).
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby Surtur » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:12 am

Just to play a little devil's advocate, I'm going to have to say, full fledged large scale Dredd doesn't sound like a good idea. I feel that Judge Dredd works best on a small scale. There are several instances in the comics that warrant large scale rules, but most of the action happens on small scale. I think one of the biggest draws to JD is the low start up cost of each gang. It makes it very easy to convince someone to buy additional gangs when they can spend less than $50 to get a full force. It would have to be more than just Mega City Judges and Sov Judges for large scale JD. You would need punks, mobs and other armies that kinda work, but not really on the large scale concept.

I will say, that having rules for those large scale involvements would be nice, but I don't want a 40k clone. I want a tactically involved game that lets my squads act intelligently and be flexible. I want meaningful moral and useful rules (looking at you pinning!).
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby DyN » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:15 am

I like the idea of a larger scale game and would support it - however miniatures would need to be compatable with the current ones as I now have a few from the KS events and wouldn't want to start something from stratch.

I agree that nothing should be put out there until everyone has all their orders from the Dredd and Rogue KS events - people still waiting for some product may not feel confident enough to invest in something new. I also agree that there needs to be a lot more done upfront before any new KS so that people know what they are getting into.

As a marketeer by trade, my question to Mongoose would be who they would target with this. The Apocolypse War arc was relatively a very long time ago and appeals to those of us of a certain age and/or a certain level of fandom. The money Games Workshop generates seems to be mostly made up of a younger audience for whom the War is an historic reference at best. Add to that that the concept of the Apocolypse War as a future take on a possible escalation of the Cold War, how many of Mongoose's target market resonate with the Capitalist-Communist tensions of the time? Without that, would the AW battle just look like two sets of similar armies fighting each other in an urban setting and thus have little to differentiate it except a comic? If Mongonse plan to ship a large amount of product through retailers than it may need to look at something more relevent to more recent readers as well as those of us who've been around for a few decades now.
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby commanderjase » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:36 am

i say no to large scale and keep it at the skirmish level but pour more love into it at its current state, not to say i would not back it but i feel it would not get a big enough following to allow it to grow and fund it to a level you might envisage.

and if it was to go ahead, have a very big plan in place and have plenty of art, greens/models if possible and plenty of incentives for people to part with the money.
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby richred_uk » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:03 am

As much as it pains my initial interest in this, some thoughts lead me to say no, not a good idea with these forces and as a 'plain' wargame.

Mongoose would have to look at who was going to buy any plastic figures, and they just wouldn't shift in bulk to players of the current JD Game because Judges are so expensive points-wise, they'd never want 100's of them.

I think the best long-term use of multi-part multi-pose plastics for JD would be for something like a Citi-Def/ Armed Civilians set - these could sell to existing skirmish game players as well as make up a good proxy force for other sci-fi armies away from 2000AD gaming, so a good potential market.

The really successful Kickstarters are fairly self-enclosed projects - Dreadball, the CMON boxes etc, so if it was my money I was putting up, I'd look at creating a more sort of 'board game feel' Block Mania type game to 'carry' the plastic figures. A small amount of plastic Judges could be done as part of this, but maybe as an early stretch goal.

I think also that Mongoose would have to be a lot more organised to support a Kickstarter on this type of project than seemed to be the case on the Rogue Trooper KS

- Sculptors named and samples shown in advance, nothing like the Wok Headed Rogue that killed a lot of interest in the project

- concept art/ designs that show the unsculpted figures as figures and not just 200AD clip art

- All outstanding KS stuff delivered

- The project marketed to online sites and offline (comic/ film mags etc) pretty constantly - there should be someone answering comments on the KS site pretty much 7 days a week

- Internally I'd be sorting out the business information side too - the RT kickstarter tidied up the confusion with all the JD swaps which was good, but there seems to be some difficulty tracking what has shipped to who and when on the JD Kickstarter, when the direct ordering system seems to track very efficiently

It's worth following some of the other KS's out there to get good ideas - for a skirmish mini game, the Empire of the Dead one is running very nicely, and for a company I would guess is comparable in size to Mongoose.
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby judgedoug » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:26 pm

Greg Smith wrote: And I found Wargames Factory zombie vixens quite poor
Really? I like 'em.

The Wargames Factory Dreamforge kits are the highest quality plastic kits ever made on the wargaming market, using slide-core tooling, with kits featuring ball joins and pistons. Wargames Factory also produces the Malifaux plastics for Wyrd. They went from being the crappiest plastics company for wargames, to the best, in a few years.
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby judgedoug » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:32 pm

First and foremost, CAD sculpting. Traditional 3-up pantograph sculpting is way, way too expensive and can't compete with the quality of CAD sculpting. It can be 6-10x the price vs tooling directly from CAD files.

Get CAD sculpts commissioned from a good CAD sculptor before the KS for the Judges and Sovs. Keep him on retainer so that as stretch goals near, you can post WIP shots from the sculptor for Citi-Def. It might be worth seeing if Mark Mandragon from Dreamforge would be available for commission work, or maybe some of the Prodos CAD sculptors from the new Warzone minis game.

Honestly a stretch goal should include modular plastic walls that can be clipped together so we can make Citi-blocks.
- Doug
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Re: Future of 2000AD Gaming

Postby judgedoug » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:59 pm

Secondly, you do need variation. The actual KS goal would be to fund the rulebook (howsabout Judge Dredd: Total War [mass combat miniatures gaming in the world of Judge Dredd] as the name?), one sprue of MC-1 Judges and one sprue of Sov Judges. First stretch, Citi-Def. Additional stretches would fund the core units in plastic of the additional armies.

You simply have to use CAD designed plastic sprues and modern tooling methods to be financially feasable. Mark Mandragon/Dreamforge Games was able to fund a dozen plastic multipart multipose plastic kits including several infantry squads, accessories kits, vehicles, and large robot/titans in a KS that raised $200k ONLY because he sculpts in 3D/CAD.

Pledge Levels would be a single Force. For example, $xxx pledge could be "Get one complete Total War Force" which is composed of XYZ # of plastic sprues for that Force. Force army types are unlocked as stretch goals. Additional stretch goals add on currently-existing or new metal specialty figures to a Force. Alternate the big stretch goals with short small ones. Big stretch goals unlock new plastics (so at least $10k for a stretch), smaller stretch goals add metal figs to Forces. For example...

Let's say Judge Dredd Total War has a goal of $25000 to fund the rules, plastic MC-1 Judges and plastic EM Sov Judges. A "Force" pledge level of $80 includes the rulebook, dice, and one Force of your choice that contains ten sprues of five plastic models. Then a stretch goal of $30k adds a metal Med Judge to every Judge Force set, and adds a metal Sov Officer and Satellat to every Sov Force set. then $40k unlocks the plastic Citi-Def force. then $45k adds a metal Citi-Def Jaeger to each Citi-Def Force, a metal Tek Judge to every Judge force set, and a metal Sov Spy to every Sov Force set. et cetera. Add-ons are things too expensive to be given away as stretch goals, and would include "+$20 for a metal Judge on Lawmaster, +$15 for a Sov Sentenoid, +$40 for a Pat Wagon" etc. Add-ons can get unlocked at small stretch goals too, maybe called "Reinforcement Goals".

There's incentive for people to increase their pledges as new Forces get unlocked, as well as when new reinforcement stretch goals get unlocked, ("oh man I want three Sentenoids!"), as well as when the add-ons to Forces get good enough that people want to add that Force ("well I was just getting Judges but the Robots just got a sweet freebie, gotta add that Force now too!")

Suggestions for armies, in order of possible popularity:
Justice Department (anything and The Day The Law Died)
Sov Justice Department (Apocalypse War)
Citi-Def (Block War & Apocalypse War & Day of Chaos)
Dark Justice Department (mind-controlled Necropolis)
Zombies (Judgement Day)
Robots (Robot War and Second Robot War)
Cursed Earth Mutant Raiders
and so many more!
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