(Ahem) Rulebook Update

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chaoschild
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Re: (Ahem) Rulebook Update

Postby chaoschild » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:39 am

shiba-tenchi wrote: One question did come up though...he picked Accurate as he figured he could use it when he fired the HSP in spray mode. We denied him that combo....good call?
Accurate can only be used on weapons with one shooting dice, so that rules out all spit guns.

Personally, I'm fine with the Vigilante arsenal keeping its current limits.
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Re: (Ahem) Rulebook Update

Postby shiba-tenchi » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:50 am

Fire bombs:

Sequence for double check fail...in area of firebomb effect, roll agility, fail, lose a hit. Then take a will check (they are both "at the start of the turn", but the agility one is detailed first), fail the will check, lose actions to beat out fire....but can re-roll the agility check.....

So is that "re-roll" the original check (so if succeed, fire out, no damage) or another agility check to put out the fire and "avoid taking more damage that turn"....and if so what is the consequence of failure....another hit of damage?

Also, the Agility check is worded "start of every turn", while the will check is "start of the turn". Does that mean the agility check is taken at the start of both players turns (should the fire still be raging), while the will check is only on the players' turn whose character is burning?
Last edited by shiba-tenchi on Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Ahem) Rulebook Update

Postby shiba-tenchi » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:05 am

chaoschild wrote:
shiba-tenchi wrote: One question did come up though...he picked Accurate as he figured he could use it when he fired the HSP in spray mode. We denied him that combo....good call?
Accurate can only be used on weapons with one shooting dice, so that rules out all spit guns.
His argument was that in spray mode the HSG only rolls 1D, so Accurate should apply.
Fire bad, tree pretty.
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WereRogue
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Re: (Ahem) Rulebook Update

Postby WereRogue » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:13 am

shiba-tenchi wrote:Bit dangerous to completely remove that limitation. As a test one of our guys had the LV rocking around with the heavy spitgun (and Energy Shield and Sports Armour). Add in stealthy+infiltrate and he was just a monster. Found himself a nice high vantage point and then just hammered anyone who tried to approach.
Oh, I've made a blender of a LV using the power armour, energy shield, power board and the "He Knows Kung Fu" talent tree. Vicious. Rarely lost and when I did, it was due to bad die rolls on my part, in the main.
shiba-tenchi wrote:I do agree a sidekick from the get go would be cool. As it is you can only spend a maximum of 395 or your initial 500 points currently. If not a sidekick, then upgrade to level 5 for 155 points.
Starting off at Level 5, IMO, would be a bad idea. I was already at an advantage over the other Level 1 gangs starting at just Level 3. I'd love the idea, though, to be able to add a Level 1 sidekick starting out, though, so long as there's a restriction that forces the primary LV to be a higher level than the Sidekick.

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Re: (Ahem) Rulebook Update

Postby WereRogue » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:16 am

shiba-tenchi wrote:His argument was that in spray mode the HSG only rolls 1D, so Accurate should apply.
It only rolls 1 die as a limitation on the effect, not a status of the weapon itself, so it wouldn't work. Unlike with, say, the Lawgiver, Accurate works on all rounds but the Executioner round.

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Re: (Ahem) Rulebook Update

Postby shiba-tenchi » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:22 am

shiba-tenchi wrote:Fire bombs:

Sequence for double check fail...in area of firebomb effect, roll agility, fail, lose a hit. Then take a will check (they are both "at the start of the turn", but the agility one is detailed first), fail the will check, lose actions to beat out fire....but can re-roll the agility check.....

So is that "re-roll" the original check (so if succeed, fire out, no damage) or another agility check to put out the fire and "avoid taking more damage that turn"....and if so what is the consequence of failure....another hit of damage?

Also, the Agility check is worded "start of every turn", while the will check is "start of the turn". Does that mean the agility check is taken at the start of both players turns (should the fire still be raging), while the will check is only on the players' turn whose character is burning?
Question also applies to Incendiary Rounds and Flamethrower it appears.
Fire bad, tree pretty.
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Re: (Ahem) Rulebook Update

Postby chaoschild » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:00 pm

This is how I play the checks, it seems to fit with everything as written:
1: Make agility check. If passed, fire goes out.
2: If agility check fails, make will check. If failed, reroll agility check.
3: If you didn't pass either the original or the rerolled agility check, take 1 hit.
4: If you passed the original agility check or the will check (and you're not dead) you may take your actions as normal.

With respect to the tests being at the start of turn, I spotted the issue with the flamethrower a while back and Matt says it's been fixed in Block War. However I didn't make the connection with fire bombs and incendiaries being the same rules and apparently Matt didn't either so these haven't been updated.
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Re: (Ahem) Rulebook Update

Postby Winged_Human » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:27 pm

If you read the beginning of the JDMG rulebook it specifically outlines that a "Turn" includes each player's "Phase". So this means that (if player A has the first player phase of the turn) Player A uses a firebomb, player B takes the hit, and the fire is not rolled again until AFTER Player B takes his phase, and the turn begins again.
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Re: (Ahem) Rulebook Update

Postby chaoschild » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:04 pm

That's correct as things are written, and is the point that I raised (and has apparently been changed) with regard to flamethrowers.
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Re: (Ahem) Rulebook Update

Postby shiba-tenchi » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:51 pm

chaoschild wrote:This is how I play the checks, it seems to fit with everything as written:
1: Make agility check. If passed, fire goes out.
2: If agility check fails, make will check. If failed, reroll agility check.
3: If you didn't pass either the original or the rerolled agility check, take 1 hit.
4: If you passed the original agility check or the will check (and you're not dead) you may take your actions as normal.

With respect to the tests being at the start of turn, I spotted the issue with the flamethrower a while back and Matt says it's been fixed in Block War. However I didn't make the connection with fire bombs and incendiaries being the same rules and apparently Matt didn't either so these haven't been updated.
The description of flamethrower in Block War matches incendaries and fire bombs in the rulebook from what I can see. Unfortunately the wording doesn't support your interpretation above. Strictly as written, without interpretation it is:

1: Make agility check. If passed, fire goes out.
2: If agility check fails, "automatically" lose one hit.
3. Make will check. If passed, able to take actions normally.
4. If failed, lose two actions. Reroll agility check.

What is not totally clear is what are the consequences of the "rerolled" agility check. Presumably if passed the fire goes out. If it is failed what happens? I would assume the fire stays and we start back at 1: next turn. Another possibility could be the model loses a second hit based on the text "to avoid taking more damage that turn", and then we start back at 1: next turn. A third is that the original agility check is re-taken, and presumably if successful this time the fire goes out and the "automatic" hit loss is reversed.

So, if the second agility roll is passed does the model have:

a) 1 hit loss, no actions, and no fire.

or

b) no hit loss, no actions and no fire.

If second test is failed:

a) 2 hit loss, no actions and fire continues

or

b) 1 hit loss, no actions and fire continues?
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Re: (Ahem) Rulebook Update

Postby Greg Smith » Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:11 am

shiba-tenchi wrote:
What is not totally clear is what are the consequences of the "rerolled" agility check.
It does say "it will also be able to re-roll its Agility check in order to avoid taking more damage that turn." And since the original successful roll puts the fire out, I would assume the reroll does too.

So I would assume you take no damage if you make the reroll. I guess 'more damage' refers to the damage taken from the initial hit.

What is interesting is that there is no voluntary action to put out the fire. Although, I would allow a character to take the two actions to reroll if they wished.
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chaoschild
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Re: (Ahem) Rulebook Update

Postby chaoschild » Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:13 am

shiba-tenchi wrote:The description of flamethrower in Block War matches incendaries and fire bombs in the rulebook from what I can see.
That's because the updated Block War hasn't been released yet. I'm hoping this all becomes clear once it is, and also that the same update will be applied to fire bombs and incendiaries.
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Re: (Ahem) Rulebook Update

Postby Winged_Human » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:09 pm

chaoschild wrote: That's because the updated Block War hasn't been released yet. I'm hoping this all becomes clear once it is, and also that the same update will be applied to fire bombs and incendiaries.
It's not? The one I Downloaded when Matt put out his "Rulebook Updated" thread has the same "Last updated" date as the rulebook.


Interesting.
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Re: (Ahem) Rulebook Update

Postby chaoschild » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:33 pm

You know what, you're right. That's downright odd, because I downloaded a fresh copy when the rulebook was updated and nothing had changed. But I've got the updated copy now.

The flamethrower rules HAVE changed, in that the tests are now taken at the start of the model's phase rather than the start of turn, which makes a lot more sense but doesn't clarify the issue with what order to take the tests in.

I still think my interpretation of the rule works, but I'm open to being corrected.

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