Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

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astronomypete
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Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby astronomypete » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:31 am

Hi guys, I pre-ordered the Kzinti fleet when Matthew made the group announcment that they were available soon (and the price hike).

My wife noticed that the money was taken immediately when the item was pre-ordered so I contacted the sales email address asking that as the money was taken would they be shipping the goods within 28 days, in accordance with mail order law.

I have had the response to say that they cannot guarantee that my Kzinti fleet box would be delivered in time, so they are refunding my money, and cancelling my pre-order

I am very disapointed firstly that money was taken illegally, secondly that I have lost my slot in the pre-order race, and thirdly and probably more importantly that the Kzinti fleet is at least 28 days+ away from availability. Despite being told in London at Salute that they would be available soon, and from the previous message that they were just a few weeks away.
1. The Federation Reinforcements (already available mail order) and the Klingon vs. Orion squadron sets are being manufactured right now, and will be shipping to stores in a couple of weeks.

2. The Kzintis are being prepped right now, and will have their production moulds good to go next week. They will be 1-2 weeks behind the two new squadron sets, those who have pre-ordered while see their cats a little sooner.
This therefore appears to be a little white lie.

This is the appropriate law details http://whatconsumer.co.uk/mail-order-go ... e-selling/ despite looking everywhere on the Mongoose site that I could see I couldn't see any reference to money being taken immediately which states that
Traders must provide you with specific information in regard to their obligations and your rights before you confirm your order. This is called pre-contractual (or prior) information and is dealt with in the next section, along with information about invoking your cooling off rights, returns, refunds and replacements.
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby billclo » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:44 am

I have been waiting since May 6 for my order of Federation Reinforcements to be shipped...

I did give them a link to the Federal Trade Commission's stance on the matter, but they don't give a hoot.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02 ... ndise-rule


They seem unconcerned about the delay. I wish they'd only list things as "available" if they actually have stock on the shelf, ready to ship with minimal delay. They should list the Fed Reinforcements as "backordered, substantial delay". I'm getting sick of them holding onto my money and I have no product. But they've got us over a barrel; they are the sole vendor of many of the minis...try getting singles anywhere else (okay, ADB has a few but the selection is pitiful). Who else are you going to get the minis from? :x

Lousy way to do business, IMHO. I can see why Mongoose has such a lousy reputation amongst many gamers.
Last edited by billclo on Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby storeylf » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:02 pm

Ask for your money back as the OP did and purchase when they say are actually available. By the sounds of it you won't get them much quicker anyway.

If enough people do it then it may affect cash flow sufficiently to make mongoose improve their service/promises on pre-orders.
Last edited by storeylf on Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby H » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:03 pm

guys, it's simple. if you don't like it, and want to throw in legal arguments, don't order.
Take up your gripes with Mongoose direct instead of swearing on a public forum kids can read.

and if you do want to get legal, get yourself a solicitor?
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby nekomata fuyu » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:06 pm

Ok, OP is being inconsistent here. All information from your own post:
- The expected ETA for the kitties is approx 3-4 weeks (21-28 days) according to the quote in your post. The style of writing in that quote also implies to me that they're intended as general timescales rather than down to day accuracy.
- You've asked them if they can guarantee the 28 day limit will be achieved (in other words, that they are 100% certain that they won't be delay by even a single day).
- Because Mongoose cannot be 100% certain of not even being a single day over, you are claiming that they are 100% certain to be at least a day over. Sorry to break it to you, but logic doesn't work that way.

Also, whilst they might have had a small error in the original processing of the order (the website you link says something different to what you're claiming), I see nothing wrong with how they've recovered from it. You've contacted them and demanded 100% certainty of a service they can't be 100% certain of. As a result, rather than string you along in whatever likelyhood of the order being completed in time, they have instead cancelled the order for the service that you're telling them isn't good enough for your needs.
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby MongooseMatt » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:41 pm

astronomypete wrote:
1. The Federation Reinforcements (already available mail order) and the Klingon vs. Orion squadron sets are being manufactured right now, and will be shipping to stores in a couple of weeks.

2. The Kzintis are being prepped right now, and will have their production moulds good to go next week. They will be 1-2 weeks behind the two new squadron sets, those who have pre-ordered while see their cats a little sooner.
This therefore appears to be a little white lie.
Umm, no it isn't.

The Fed Reinforcements _are_ available now (if anyone in the US is waiting, they are going off to you, well, today or tomorrow - the last one in the UK was shipped today, but we are getting resupplied tomorrow), the Klingon vs. Orions are being manufactured right _now_, and the Kzinti are having the last of their production moulds put together and will be in full production likely next week.

The lady you dealt with won't guarantee a timeline 100% because she well knows a mould could break, a shipment of metal could be delayed, or the pocket rulebooks for the fleet sets might be late back from the printers, none of which is under our complete control.

What we are telling you is our best information as of the present time, and we are telling you the first Kzinti will be 1-2 weeks away (likely a few pre-ordered squadron sets first rather than an avalanche of fleet sets, but they will all quickly follow once the first boxes go out). I can also say that, like the Klingon vs, Orion sets, full priority is being given to pre-orders before anything else.

Our other option is to give no news at all until the items are on shop shelves - but I don't think anyone wants that, right? You want to know what is happening and when, surely?
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby billclo » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:43 pm

storeylf wrote:Ask for your money back as the OP did and purchase when they say are actually available. By the sounds of it you won't get them much quicker anyway.

If enough people do it then it may affect cash flow sufficiently to make mongoose improve their service/promises on pre-orders.
That's just it. HOW is one to be able to determine when the items are really available? Mongoose's website says they're available. Matt's pronouncements of "availability" aren't worth the electrons they're posted with.

They should list the items as backordered until they actually have product on the shelf ready to ship, not take your money and someday in the indefinite future we'll fulfill your order.

It's not as if we can get many of the minis anywhere else anyways. Try finding singles anywhere but Mongoose. Until yesterday, Fed Reinforcements were not available ANYWHERE I could locate. So they're the sole source for the most part.

I just hope my Fed reinforcements arrive in time for me to run a NOVEMBER convention scenario.
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby astronomypete » Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:59 pm

Time for me to answer critics.

If I pre-order from what's left of game/gamestation I'm asked to pay a deposit, be it £1.00 or £5.00.

If I pre-order from Amazon I pay nothing.

When the goods are ready I either go in or Amazon take money at that point as they ship the goods.

In the UK to take money without advising you first that they are taking money is plain illegal, therefore I asked for my money back.

I was disapointed that the time scale of 3-4 weeks indicates a shipping time for the product.

It's my first dealings with a company for online trade, this leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth. Yes I love the Fed/Rom/Klingon box sets which I bought in London. The quality was poor on the mouldings, but a little care and affection and they look great, and I was very happy.

To me pre-order from my experience with other on-line e-commerce means pre-order in an amazon style unless specified. There is no specification to the contrary so I therefore do not expect money to be taken pre-delivery. Unless there is an expectation to deliver within the law's specified time limits.

When a refund is then issued I've been told we'll take you off the pre-order list then. If there's any left you can place your order at that point when they come in stock.

Very much says if you want them you have to put up with us breaking UK trading law, otherwise go away and don't buy from us. Not very good customer service at all.
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby H » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:07 pm

had it surpassed 30 days?

as the law you seem keen to rely on states

If the supplier is unable to fulfil their obligations within 30 days, they must inform you before the end of the 30 day deadline. They may offer you an alternative date for delivery, but you are under no obligation to accept and are quite within your rights to ask for a full refund.

if 30 days had not yet passed, then Mongoose did not breach this condition (see bold). if 30 days HAD passed, then they were indeed in breach of the law. just so we know the whole truth ok?
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby MongooseMatt » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:10 pm

billclo wrote: Mongoose's website says they're available.
The Kzinti? No they don't...
billclo wrote: Try finding singles anywhere but Mongoose. Until yesterday, Fed Reinforcements were not available ANYWHERE I could locate. So they're the sole source for the most part.
Neither blisters nor Fed Reinforcements have started shippping to distributors yet - and we have never claimed otherwise.
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby MongooseMatt » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:19 pm

astronomypete wrote: When a refund is then issued I've been told we'll take you off the pre-order list then. If there's any left you can place your order at that point when they come in stock.
I am a bit confused here...

First off, we are not Amazon - we are a small hobby company, and we will always try to do our best for you. Put another way, things may not always be as smooth as ordering via Amazon but, if anything did go wrong with your Amazon order, I don't think you would get the owner of the company responding directly to you and seeing what can be done to make you feel more comfortable.

I have to say, I don't believe we have misrepresented our position in any way on this. As I said before, we will always give you the best available information we have at any given time. Nine times out of ten, it will be correct. Sometimes, something out of our control happens and we have to revise things. As above, we are a small hobby company.

If you are not comfortable pre-ordering products from us, or anyone else for that matter (and I fully understand that, many people do not wholly trust Internet ordering), don't pre-order. We really won't mind :) When the Pre-Order button changes to Add to Cart, you know we are currently or just about to start shipping, so you are safe to order. And don't worry about losing your place on any pre-order queue (which does not really exist anyway). You will likely get your ships a few days after those who pre-ordered, but we turnaround well over 90% of all mail orders within 24 hours.

Finally, at the end of the day, we guarantee _everything_ you order from us, from its quality to its actual arrival. If you are unhappy in any way, we will always replace or, if you prefer, refund.

I hope that goes a little way to allaying your fears. At the moment, though, the Kzinti are on track.
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby billclo » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:25 pm

msprange wrote:
billclo wrote: Mongoose's website says they're available.
The Kzinti? No they don't...
billclo wrote: Try finding singles anywhere but Mongoose. Until yesterday, Fed Reinforcements were not available ANYWHERE I could locate. So they're the sole source for the most part.
Neither blisters nor Fed Reinforcements have started shippping to distributors yet - and we have never claimed otherwise.
I was referring to the Fed Reinforcements, which I posted in my first post. I'm not concerned about whether or not distributors have gotten their stock yet. I mail-ordered mine from your website a month ago. When the website says "In Stock", I expect shipment in a timely manner, not some day in the indefinite future. If items are truly not in stock on the shelf ready to ship yet, then list them as back-ordered. How hard is that? If I order an item listed as "in stock" then I expect it to be shipped within a few days. If an item(s) are listed as "backordered" then we know to expect a long delay. Misrepresenting when an item is actually available is lousy business practice.
Last edited by billclo on Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby MongooseMatt » Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:29 pm

billclo wrote: I was referring to the Fed Reinforcements, which I posted in my first post. I'm not concerned about whether or not distributors have gotten their stock yet. I mail-ordered mine from your website a month ago. When the website says "In Stock", I expect shipment in a timely manner, not some day in the indefinite future. Lousy business practice.
Drop me a line with your details at msprange@mongoosepublishing.com - you should have received them by now.
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby billclo » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:08 pm

msprange wrote:
billclo wrote: I was referring to the Fed Reinforcements, which I posted in my first post. I'm not concerned about whether or not distributors have gotten their stock yet. I mail-ordered mine from your website a month ago. When the website says "In Stock", I expect shipment in a timely manner, not some day in the indefinite future. Lousy business practice.
Drop me a line with your details at msprange@mongoosepublishing.com - you should have received them by now.
Done.
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby MongooseMatt » Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:20 pm

billclo wrote: Done.
Looking into this right now.
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby Digger » Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:45 pm

I'm sorry, but I have had great service from Mongoose in the past, if you notify them with an error they deal with it.

I therefore must agree with 'H' on this, if you don't like it then play something else!
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby billclo » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:00 pm

Digger wrote:I'm sorry, but I have had great service from Mongoose in the past, if you notify them with an error they deal with it.

I therefore must agree with 'H' on this, if you don't like it then play something else!
So because YOU have had great service, the rest of us who haven't should shut up? Talk about fan-boyism.

Matt took care of things, but I shouldn't have had to complain on a public forum and escalate it to the head of the company. I've had multiple contacts with Customer Service, with no progress on getting anything shipped, so clearly I notified them of a problem and nothing happened. Matt said everything I ordered was in stock, so why didn't the order ship? Like I said, he says he's taken care of it.
Last edited by billclo on Wed Jun 06, 2012 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby H » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:06 pm

Digger wrote:I'm sorry, but I have had great service from Mongoose in the past, if you notify them with an error they deal with it.

I therefore must agree with 'H' on this, if you don't like it then play something else!
to be fair, i said don't order, not play something else, their is a 2400 line still out there, if you like less detail and smaller models.

and lets not start about fanbois, theres been enough on that from both sides of the coin (ie ADB and Mongoose)
and come on, I've had good service from Mitsubishi, but i'm hardly a fan boi as I now own an Alfa.
if you feel the need to complain, then complain to The comapny in the proper order, Matts e-mail adress has been public domain for as long as i can remember, dragging it all through a public forum damages the game and the reuptation of the player base as well as the company. ie swearing, so little jack goes and asks daddy what that word means..
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby MarkDawg » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:13 pm

Digger wrote:I'm sorry, but I have had great service from Mongoose in the past, if you notify them with an error they deal with it.

I therefore must agree with 'H' on this, if you don't like it then play something else!

Look the fact is Mongoose has been a fracking disaster when it comes to minis and service and orders. So for you to say if you don't like it leave is BS. There is no product in the world that people would be okay with the delays Mongoose has doled out to many of us if you want to read my story see here. viewtopic.php?f=103&t=50327

I have been giving demo games at my store and now a bunch of people want to play the game, the store I play at wants to carry the game they emailed mongoose and got no reply. I had to give my FLGS Mathew's email so they could get the ball rolling to stock the game in the store.

The simple fact is Mongoose has big time issues with producing minis and getting them out the door with good quality control. The deserve criticism the launch of this game has been a complete disaster.

I would leave this game in a heart beat if it sucked but Mathew seems to have some talent and his rules set is super fun to play but that only lasts so long they need to get on the ball and capture the income that this game will generate or it will die on the vine.

Mongoose has admitted that this game tripped their expectations in sales at the first launch we have supported this game buy giving them a flood of capitol in perorders that they were almost 2-3 months late on. Don't hate on the fans that have supported this game with their wallets we have every right to expect more.
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Re: Pre-order Kzinti - disapointment

Postby tneva82 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:28 pm

MarkDawg wrote:Mongoose has admitted that this game tripped their expectations in sales at the first launch we have supported this game buy giving them a flood of capitol in perorders that they were almost 2-3 months late on. Don't hate on the fans that have supported this game with their wallets we have every right to expect more.
Doubtfull the preorder cash is any help for them though. Doubtful they actually put it into use before orders are shipped. To do anything else is proven recipe for disaster and company going down due to owning money they don't have...
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