Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby MongooseMatt » Tue May 22, 2012 10:12 am

Halfbat wrote:As always, the ships you choose should match your own preferred tactics (that's standard wargames advice!).
Absolutely. You will see advice for Feds around here that I just plain don't agree with - but it works for others, and if it works for you, feel free to ignore my ramblings!
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby Captain Jonah » Tue May 22, 2012 10:13 am

[quote="Halfbat@The "Oldies". Pleased to see so many of you around. :D[/quote]

Oldies. OLDIES.

Damn whipersnapper. Children have no respect these days. I'd give you a whack with my walking stick but my zimmer frame is in for repairs so I need the stick to lean on :lol: :wink:

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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby MongooseMatt » Tue May 22, 2012 10:14 am

MobileMarksmen wrote:I will be playing tomorrow night and will post a battle report.
Looking forward to it - we'll get to the bottom of this and make your Feds born again hard!
MobileMarksmen wrote: I will try out some of the smaller ships...but I have been also noticing that enough 6's get rolled that a ship needs to be able to take some hits.
You are right, they need to take hits - don't throw small ships into the heart of the battle! Just nibbling round the edges is where they should be, diving in only to take out a wounded enemy.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby Greg Smith » Tue May 22, 2012 2:29 pm

Halfbat wrote: @The "Oldies". Pleased to see so many of you around. :D
*shakes zimmer frame* "Damn kids. Oldies indeed. hmmph!"
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby katadder » Tue May 22, 2012 5:33 pm

billclo wrote:One question my opponent asked was this: why do disruptors lose accuracy at over half range, but don't drop to half damage? It would be more realistic and reduce the effectiveness of long range massed disruptor fire.

That got me to thinking. How about this: make disruptors do 1 damage, but make them killzone 12? That way at 12" or less they'd do 2 damage each, and over 12" they'd do 1 each. This makes long range massed disruptor fire less effective.

I'm of the opinion that disruptors are okay at this point, but the above question/proposal is kinda interesting I think.
it was looked at iirc, however then they become slightly longer range, less accurate phasers without precise. yes they can overload but this then leaves you very close and probably in trouble not moving much

this is the klingons signature heavy weapon, being barely longer ranged than a phaser 1 (which they dont have as many of them as the feds) would really short change them
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby MongooseMatt » Tue May 22, 2012 10:10 pm

katadder wrote: this is the klingons signature heavy weapon, being barely longer ranged than a phaser 1 (which they dont have as many of them as the feds) would really short change them
Indeed - in fact, I think disruptors got more attention in playtesting than any other weapon!
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby seattledv8 » Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:47 am

Indeed , as a new player (well to this system over 30+ years in wargaming) the Kzinti would be seriously hampered by a nerfing of disruptors.
They are a good weapon system, but only overpowered(heh better to said play to their strenghts) if you allow your opponent to set back and snipe.
Two things, first as has been mentioned; Use terrain! It is what the game has been designed for.
Of course your opponent doesn't want to use it, it weakens his his advantages and exaggerates your weakness.
Second; play the different objective games, Make him move to an objective not always setting back and sniping.
I am learning the game with Kzinti, if the game is a simple 'kill the other guy' I would never get closer than I had to.
Yes I have a advantage at range, Romulans and Gorn have an advantage at short range.
The Feds are a mid to short range fleet, the Klingons are masters of movement.
The trick is to learn your fleets strenghts and weakness'
Yes it is tough losing 8 out of 8 but if you learn how to overcome this you with end up a much stronger player.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby JackFrost » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:45 am

Not sure it is Disruptors that are overpowered, but that the Klingon combination of generous disruptor arcs, tough front shields and freakishly maneuverable ships is impossible to beat with average die rolling. Haven't seen anyone propose workable anti-klingon tactics that don't rely on "roll well" as the overwhelming tactical guidance.
Klingon heavy weapons out range photon torpedoes, are more accurate by far and shoot every turn. Most their ships turn on a dime and have better turn modes than anyone, which makes the concept of gaining a flank bogus unless you're prepared to split your fleet (and thus become vulnerable to being dealt in separate by an overwhelming force).
At our game store, Klingons are about 10 wins for 2 losses so far, and this is with Klingons mostly being played by less experienced players. It is turning people off the game.

I'd love to see the cumulative win/loss record for the various races against each other from other players or game groups.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby MarkDawg » Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:54 am

Dude you have to play with Terrain Dust clouds planets comets and asteroid fields make such a huge difference. This balances the range and maneuverability issue.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby McKinstry » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:49 am

JackFrost wrote: I'd love to see the cumulative win/loss record for the various races against each other from other players or game groups.
We're probably running about 60/40 Klingon to Fed win ratio. With admittedly less games played, the Kzinti are batting about .500 versus the Klinks. We haven't played Klink versus Romulan or Klink v Gorn since lumbering went away.

For the Feds, the bigger the points, the better they do. Even on a 4 x 4 table at 500-750 points (as the rules suggest) with normal terrain rolls, the Klingons are doing very well but up the points total to 1500+ points on a 4x6, add in a scenario with requirements other than 'kill the other fellow' and the Feds do better as with bigger fleets, the Klingons can't get out of the line of fire or have any real initiative sink advantage.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby seattledv8 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:58 am

Klingons can be tough, but it is the front shields that give them their edge, not the weapon load out.
The Kzinti can out shoot them at range (Disprutors and drones)
Up close the Romulans and Gorns have much more firepower.
The Feds are the closest to the Klingons with the Feds better up close and the Klingons better at range.
That said if you can get side or aft shots the Klingons fall.
They are a good fleet, but they have weakness like any other fleet.
The Romulans with the front shield boost, cloak and plasma torps are the top fleet in my opinion.
Not a easy fleet to play, it takes a bit of finesse to play well, but a strong fleet.
That is the load out that I am trying to work out how to defeat in my group, as it is the fleet that gives me the most trouble.
That said I still like the Kzinti and have been discovering ways to deal with the Roms.
Klingons are a fleet that can be dealt with.
As I (and others) have said, use terrain! play the missions!
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby Halfbat » Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:55 am

Sorry to see this come up again. I've introduced new players to the game and they like to go for the Feds, mostly, against my Klingons. The games tend to be tight with the Feds having an edge BUT I point out to the newbies that:

1. the Klingon vessels have very weak side arcs.
2. splitting up any force against the Klingons is an invitation to disaster.
3. the Feds are really good up close against the Klinks.
4. whilst terrain can sometimes seem to be a complication, against the Klingons it hampers their maneouvreability, lessening their agillity advantage.
5. they can play larger (1000-1200) or smaller (600) games with the smaller giving the Klinks an advantage.
6. BEtS is a _great_ SA for the Feds, outdoing the Klinks on almost every vessel.

All have opted for terrain, larger fleets, escorting major ships into the heart of a Klingon force (splitting it and pinning down a C7, once) and just soaking up damage on the way with BEtS.

Hope this helps. Where are you playing (rough location/country, I mean)?
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby tneva82 » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:25 pm

Halfbat wrote:6. BEtS is a _great_ SA for the Feds, outdoing the Klinks on almost every vessel.
Now to wait somebody complain they can't reload photon's or worse can't overload their photon' for that "never gonna happen anyway" ideal shot :lol:
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby Halfbat » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:25 am

tneva82 wrote:
Halfbat wrote:6. BEtS is a _great_ SA for the Feds...
Now to wait somebody complain they can't reload photon's or worse can't overload their photon' for that "never gonna happen anyway" ideal shot :lol:
:D

The only time I saw an ideal photon shot(s) was in my first game, where the reload rules were misunderstood. :ouch: :oops: The fact that the Klinks were totally hammered* in that one is not included in any other comments I may make! :roll:
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby Iron Domokun » Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:44 pm

I think the OP must be a greengroce'r.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby JackFrost » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:21 pm

Hmm, we play on a 4' x 8' table, typically 800pts or less; we play the scenarios from the rule book
with the default terrain rules, which tends to leave lots of open space on a table this big. It seems we're
playing to the Klinks advantages ...
Guess we have to try smaller table & more points both.

BTW, for all the people that enjoy weapon statistics: median (not the average, but the median, ie the value you'll expect to get at least 1/2 the time) photon damage is 0 pts. Photons are really an all or nothing weapon. When the dice look upon you with favor they're a great weapon. 1/6th of the time, that is.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby storeylf » Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:48 pm

JackFrost wrote:BTW, for all the people that enjoy weapon statistics: median (not the average, but the median, ie the value you'll expect to get at least 1/2 the time) photon damage is 0 pts. Photons are really an all or nothing weapon. When the dice look upon you with favor they're a great weapon. 1/6th of the time, that is.
Median isn't the number you expect to get at least half the time, it is the middle number of a data set. What that means is context specfic.

If you are meaning that a photon scores 0, 0, 0, 4, 4, 4 on rolls of 1 through to 6 then the median is 2, not 0. Given an even number of results the median is the mean of the middle 2. Also note in this case mean and median are the same.

However that assmes an actual set of rolls, in the more general case of binomial distribution there is no simple formula for getting the median. However, where np (number rolls * chance of hiting) is an integer then mean, mode and median are all the same. So if p = 0.5 (chance of hitting) and we roll 6 times then mean, mode and median are all the same (3 hits), so we have a mean, mode and median damage of 12. If we are at long range and p = 0.333.. then and we roll 6 times then the the mean, mode and median is 2 hits and therefore 8 damage.
Last edited by storeylf on Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby McKinstry » Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:03 pm

JackFrost wrote:Hmm, we play on a 4' x 8' table, typically 800pts or less; we play the scenarios from the rule book
with the default terrain rules, which tends to leave lots of open space on a table this big. It seems we're
playing to the Klinks advantages ...
Guess we have to try smaller table & more points both.
Check the rule book on page 24 (maybe 23). As I recall, the recommended table size under 750 points is 4 x 4 and 4x6 kicks in at 1000. Open space is the Klingons friend. Cut down on their room to dodge and/or fill that space with ships and suddenly all the agility in the universe can't get them out of a front arc and pound for pound, Klingons v any equivalent Fed is usually a mismatch.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby AdmiralGrafSpee » Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:41 pm

The perceived inbalance of disruptors and photons is direclty proportional to the number of six's your opponent rolls against you :lol:

I've done quite a few Klingon/Fed/Romulan games and I can't say anyone has an edge.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby storeylf » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:57 pm

Feds do benefit from larger fights.

Take the extreme - 1 vs 1 in a klink vs Fed game. The Feds lose out on 2 fronts.

First, there is the problem of keeping the agile klingon in arc, with only 1 ship to worry about the manouverble klingon easily keeps out of the front arc of the Fed, or at the very least least can easily keep his front shield facing the one ship.

Second, probabilities don't favor the Feds photons, a ship with 4 photons may never see the much needed 6s rolled. With the lower number of rolls that he will be making, the deviation from the average is that much higher, yes he has a better chance of the spectacular roll, but he has the higher chance of the awful roll, and even his average is not favourable given that he already fighting the manouvering issue - a single leak is not likely to be that bad.


Take the other extreme - say a 20 vs 20 fight.

First, With so many Fed ships it is now harder to keep klingon ships out of the front arc of all fed ships, anywhere you go there likely to be some Feds ship waiting. Even when you are in the front arc of Feds it is a lot harder to keep every one in the klingon front arc. Relatively the klingons manouvering edge has diminished.

Second, With a lot more photons to roll for the deviation is a lot lower, you are far less likely to roll all hits or all misses. Not only that but even the average is now very significant, at 5 photon leaks you are odds on to kill a D5W just from those leaks. In a 20 vs 20 fight with say 60 photons you are likely to be pretty close to 10 leaks per full volley, enough to have decent chance to kill 2 D5Ws just on photon leaks (or one C8).

Disrupters are nice weapons, but 60 disrupters won't kill anything of consequence via leaks, they will not even likely cripple an enemy cruiser purely on leaks, so they have to go through shields to get the job done. That makes the disrupter a very different weapon. Sure they do a lot more damage over 2 turns, but they have to do that much more damage to get the same job done.

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