Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

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Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby MobileMarksmen » Mon May 21, 2012 7:45 am

We have been playing the game now for a couple of months and are trying different combo's of ships and missions, but as the Federation player I keep running into the same wall. Klingon ship's can sit back and fire @ 24" with a +1 accuracy , multi-hit 2 weapon. this puts me in a bad spot. I either have to close range and now have phaser's to deal with as well as the Disruptor's. Not to mention that they can be overloaded every turn, and have the ability to score critical's at range. The Klingon's also gets the anti drone trait, with drones. It render's all other drones against them pointless. on top of that they are agile and have the forward shield rule.....kinda makes them unbalanced. Yes I know people will argue over photons, but they are one-hit wonders...and still don't balance out the ship's. They get phaser-2's vs, phaser-3's. I mean c'mon guys a little balance here. Like cut the disruptor's range to 16". Make it fair, or make federation ship's cheaper.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby locarno24 » Mon May 21, 2012 8:20 am

All I can say is that the one tournament set of results I've seen seem to have Klinks and Flat-Tops pretty thoroughly mixed:

Klingons On The Starboard Bow Tournament Results:
David Philips (Romulan) 82 points
Paul Eyles (Romulan) 74 points
Mark Mainwaring (Klingon) 62 points
Andy Don (Federation) 61 points
Alan Buckmaster (Klingon) 60 points
Charles Lister (Federation) 58 points
James Olver (Klingon) 58 points
Greg Smith (Federation) 57 points
Stuart Excell (Federation) 53 points
Sam Davies (Romulan) 43 points
Richard Carr (Romulan) 40 points
Will 'I am not getting a day off' Chapman (Federation) 30 points
Okay, the klingons did come higher on average but with the 4-9th places being an alternating repeat of klingon/federation/klingon/etc, it means they must be capable of putting up a fair fight.

I haven't the experience with ACTA:SF to advise you on tactics (my response to most tactical problems is "send in a wave of galliot troop carriers", which won't work here for a variety of legal reasons...)

I'd agree you have to close range, because letting him use his heavy weapons whilst you can't is only going to end badly. Secondly, you have appreciable broadsides and aft weapons - if the fight descends into a furball, you'll get phaser-1 shots on his weaker side and rear shields. To deal with klingons you need multiple threats in multiple directions (whilst he wants a head-to-head pass) - suicidal as it sounds against a more manouvrable opponents, would splitting your fleet up a bit help?
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby katadder » Mon May 21, 2012 8:34 am

a core klingon tactic of the SFU is the sabre dance, prancing around at range using disrupters which are fairly accurate out to range.
with feds you have to be in waves I think to stop them getting behind you whilst you reload. and if you get photons off well you will be saying those are overpowered.
also you go on about phaser 2s v phaser 3s, this is not true, klingons have phaser 2s instead of phaser 1s alot of the time.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby MongooseMatt » Mon May 21, 2012 8:49 am

MobileMarksmen wrote:Klingon ship's can sit back and fire @ 24" with a +1 accuracy , multi-hit 2 weapon. this puts me in a bad spot. I either have to close range and now have phaser's to deal with as well as the Disruptor's. Not to mention that they can be overloaded every turn, and have the ability to score critical's at range. The Klingon's also gets the anti drone trait, with drones. It render's all other drones against them pointless. on top of that they are agile and have the forward shield rule.....kinda makes them unbalanced.
They really aren't. To take your points one-by-one...

1. Yes, Klingons can just sit back. So don't let them - go for their throats! They may try to back away from you but a) they can only go 4" backwards and b) they will run out of table sooner or later!
2. Yes, you _should_ be closing range as Federation. Treat your phasers as your main weapons, and get into Kill Zone range. You will soon see the balance of power shift on the table.
3. If he is overloading disrtuptors, you are already within close range, and he isn't boosting shields - you will crack his shields quickly and find his ships are no way near as tough as yours.
4. The Anti-Drone trait does not make drones pointless - at best, it is a temporary shield. Keep throwing drones at him, watch what happens.
5. Yes, they get Agile and tough forward shields. Klingons have to have something to survive!
6. Try switching fleets, so you play the Klingons for a bit. See if the games go any differently.
MobileMarksmen wrote: Yes I know people will argue over photons, but they are one-hit wonders...
Why do they need to be more? A ship that gets several photons in the face is going to be hurting badly. Just one or two well-timed photon strikes will put a Federation fleet in a winning position - that is all the weapons have to do...
MobileMarksmen wrote:Make it fair, or make federation ship's cheaper.
If we did, the Federation would be unbeatable.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby Halfbat » Mon May 21, 2012 9:21 am

It's nice to see my thoughts echoing the ACT:SF master.

Though I've not played Romulans, yet, and have a dearth of opponents (travel is a real issue), the games I have played between the Fed and Klingon (max ~1200 points) show that the Feds are a dangerous opponent for the Klingons if the Klingons make a mistake in their movement in any way or get trapped on a table edge. That photon barrage is downright nasty with the fragile Klingon ships 'n shields whilst the Fed's shields recharge and solidity makes them frustrating to wear down with decent Klingon dance tactics. If the Fed's manage to close (and it seems a pair of frigates or judicious use of HET are useful here) the K's disappear _much_ quicker than the Feds...

And as for Anti-Drone - yes, it's incredibly useful, but once it disappears your own drones, secondary phasers and tractors are on drone watch.... and the Feds still have their own dual-purpose racks. :(

Why not list the fleets you're using?
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby billclo » Mon May 21, 2012 10:49 am

"To deal with klingons you need multiple threats in multiple directions (whilst he wants a head-to-head pass) - suicidal as it sounds against a more manouvrable opponents, would splitting your fleet up a bit help?"

Amen to that. It's the only thing I've found that lets me get flank shots on Klingons, else they nearly always present me with the dreaded RX shot (ship being attacked's return fire is on the shield line and the Klingon picks front shield...) or a front shield hit. It wouldn't be quite as bad if those Klingon cruisers didn't have agile, but were turn 4. At least one would have an easier time flanking them.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby SneakyPete » Mon May 21, 2012 11:01 am

You don't have to flank the Klingons with Feds in teh way you may be thinking with your fron end pointing at their rear, you just have to get past them. Try using All Power to Engines to leap past their lines and then your phasers with large overlapping arcs make mincemeat of Klingon rear phasers and weak shields while you enjoy much more powerful shields that have full 360 degree coverage. Neither of you may be able to get your heavy weapons to bear, but that is fine when your phasers AND shields are better when you are pointing tail to tail.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby Asroc2000 » Mon May 21, 2012 11:20 am

As I have not played yet, I can only comment from the POV of looking at the ships stats, but my very first commets on getting the book were "oh no, they have <insert bad word of your choice> the Feds again!"

I say again beause the same thing happened in the conversion of SFB to FC.

In Star Fleet Battles, the original game of the series, the Photon Torp had a proximity setting that could be used at long range, basically halving the damage but vastly increasing the chances of a hit. This meant that you could trade LR fire with all but the heaviest Klingon units quite comfortably, and combined with Phaser-1s that could also reach out and touch (OK reach out and scratch) you could sit at range and play the long game as well as Klingons or anyone else.

When you remove that, you take away that flexibility from the Feds. Then you add the optional improved fire control and drones that actually have a chance to doing damage rather than just using up phasers, and the balance really swings in favour of the Klingons and Kzintis.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby tneva82 » Mon May 21, 2012 11:50 am

Oh christ. Now we went from "drones are broken" into "disruptors are broken!"?

What's going to be next complain? "Phaser-3's are overpowered!" :D
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby Trenchbucket » Mon May 21, 2012 11:58 am

Like i have mentioned in other posts its all about fleet choices and tactics, it could just be your not playing the right ships at the right time, the Feds have good hull and shields compare to Klingon ships, yes kinks do get their forward shields but this means little if you charged your fleet in the middle of them and always targerted on thier sides and backs. Also their hit points are alot lower (average 5 distrupor or 5 killzone phasers damage), also remember point for point the feds have some of the best points for value frigates in the game, while the klingon ones a re good but not as dangerous.

Wait until the new classes of feds are release (on pre-order only atm) as if you look closely all 3 fleets out atm have 2 time period fleets for cruisers (start of war- SOW and midwar - MW) with the newer fleets being better in alot of areas than the start of war ones for examle

Federation SOW all ships that dont have "new" on it except DNG and battel cruiser

Klingons SOW being D6,D7, FD7

Romulan SOW being the eagle and Kestrel series

by no means these older ships dont have good qualities they generally are not as forgiving at the later versions.

People will have their own opinions but they have the right to view them on their experiences

I personally like the SOW ships as they are the ones from the series i remember most and have plans to do a all eagle Romulan fleet.

The only other tip to fed players is always take one fast cruiser, and as last move when you get into range speed it to the flank of a klingon cruiser you intend to hit and you will more or less at point blank drain his shield near to nothing.

Fed players have the ability to pull victory from defeat, while the Klingons have the ability to turn victory into with a few cruiser going pop.

The Fed's day will come, just practice unile you find it.


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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby MobileMarksmen » Mon May 21, 2012 1:39 pm

I read a lot of comments on this but no player I know is going to just let you fly by them. There is also the randomness of the dice. My CF was torn apart by disruptors as my opponent rolled 3 6's in a row, overloaded of course. When my fleet closes against heavy Klingon ships like the D7, my chances go down and my damage goes up. Also you have to take into consideration of who has initiative that turn. It is not a black and white game....and yes balance issues on weapons create a lot of gray areas. I also wonder how many games some of you have played. I have been playing miniature games for a long, long time. And its fairly easy to see when something isn't balanced. I can see losing 2 out of 3 games, or just the reverse. But getting stomped 8 out of 8 games....its not really that fun. it all comes down to the shields, range, and overloading the disruptors. My big punch has to be reloaded. that will give some of his ships the chance to close the distance and once again overload. Yes I damage ships and yes I have destroyed some. But even my opponent will agree he will just sit back, and fire disruptors. Drones vs. Drones, I can either fire them, or use them as ADD, he can do both. and even if rolls a 1 some of the Klingon ships have ADD 2. There are some balance issues.

My fleet

2 BCH
1 CF
3 OCL

Enemy fleet
2 D7
D5
2 F5
D6

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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby MongooseMatt » Mon May 21, 2012 1:48 pm

Asroc2000 wrote:Then you add the optional improved fire control and drones that actually have a chance to doing damage rather than just using up phasers, and the balance really swings in favour of the Klingons and Kzintis.
It really doesn't. Should point out that FC is _not_ the same game as CTA: SF. They are very different.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby MarkDawg » Mon May 21, 2012 1:59 pm

locarno24 wrote:All I can say is that the one tournament set of results I've seen seem to have Klinks and Flat-Tops pretty thoroughly mixed:

Klingons On The Starboard Bow Tournament Results:
David Philips (Romulan) 82 points
Paul Eyles (Romulan) 74 points
Mark Mainwaring (Klingon) 62 points
Andy Don (Federation) 61 points
Alan Buckmaster (Klingon) 60 points
Charles Lister (Federation) 58 points
James Olver (Klingon) 58 points
Greg Smith (Federation) 57 points
Stuart Excell (Federation) 53 points
Sam Davies (Romulan) 43 points
Richard Carr (Romulan) 40 points
Will 'I am not getting a day off' Chapman (Federation) 30 points
Okay, the klingons did come higher on average but with the 4-9th places being an alternating repeat of klingon/federation/klingon/etc, it means they must be capable of putting up a fair fight.

I haven't the experience with ACTA:SF to advise you on tactics (my response to most tactical problems is "send in a wave of galliot troop carriers", which won't work here for a variety of legal reasons...)

I'd agree you have to close range, because letting him use his heavy weapons whilst you can't is only going to end badly. Secondly, you have appreciable broadsides and aft weapons - if the fight descends into a furball, you'll get phaser-1 shots on his weaker side and rear shields. To deal with klingons you need multiple threats in multiple directions (whilst he wants a head-to-head pass) - suicidal as it sounds against a more manouvrable opponents, would splitting your fleet up a bit help?

You can't take one event and one gaming group to determine balance. Now if you had five or 6 events in different areas of the country then I would listen to this type of argument.

I also think this balance issue has more to do with the fact Mongoose can't produce minis if I could make the 1000-1500 pt list I wanted instead of playing with one fed one klink squadron box I think things would be way different.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby Halfbat » Mon May 21, 2012 2:07 pm

I also wonder how many games some of you have played. I have been playing miniature games for a long, long time.
Almost 40 years. And playtested lots.
Careful about such comments - the little ones might still be awake. :wink:

Thanks for posting the fleets, though the Klingons do look a bit light. An immediate difference is that I've never used the OCL or CFs against Klingons, using FFB instead of the OCL (better shield recharge and PTs). I've even given my OCL away - sure, on paper they look good (24/8 damage vs 12/4!) but the shield recharge is a key weapon against the Klingons. I've not tried the CFs yet against Klingons as (a) I only have one model and (b) my experience with highly mobile tabletop armies means I don't think it will help unless the Fed has several - all the Klingons are more maneouvreable ignoring the speed.

Interesting immediate first comparison.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby MongooseMatt » Mon May 21, 2012 2:14 pm

MobileMarksmen wrote:I read a lot of comments on this but no player I know is going to just let you fly by them.
Your ships can move 12" or 16", without getting into the Fast stuff. How is he stopping you?
MobileMarksmen wrote: There is also the randomness of the dice. My CF was torn apart by disruptors as my opponent rolled 3 6's in a row, overloaded of course.
Sauce for the goose. Are you complaining when three of your photons, overloaded, plough through his shields? You'll do a great deal more damage.
MobileMarksmen wrote: When my fleet closes against heavy Klingon ships like the D7, my chances go down and my damage goes up.
Statistically speaking, when you close in with a D7, the odds balance and his ships start taking the damage.
MobileMarksmen wrote: I also wonder how many games some of you have played. I have been playing miniature games for a long, long time.
Well, we'll ignore how faintly insulting that may sound (!) but, I can tell you, that is the wrong thing to say round here - there are a lot of people on these forums who have been playing games for most of their lives. However, let us assume for a moment you are right, and everyone is a newbie.

They are doing better than you. They have figured the Feds out.

So, something else must be going on here...
MobileMarksmen wrote: And its fairly easy to see when something isn't balanced.
May I ask, what is your background of gaming? What were the main games you were playing before coming to this one?
MobileMarksmen wrote: I can see losing 2 out of 3 games, or just the reverse. But getting stomped 8 out of 8 games....its not really that fun.
No, it isn't, but blaming the system isn't going to get us very far. So, let's take a closer look at what is happening in your games.
MobileMarksmen wrote: it all comes down to the shields, range, and overloading the disruptors. My big punch has to be reloaded. that will give some of his ships the chance to close the distance and once again overload. Yes I damage ships and yes I have destroyed some. But even my opponent will agree he will just sit back, and fire disruptors.
Well, I am hearing some contradictory things here, which we will need to sort out if we are going to help you. I am not seeing how range is the advantage when he is getting overloaded disruptors on you. Just want to double check here - you know he can only move 6" when overloading disruptors and, when he does, he only gets a 6" range with them? I ask, as if he is firing overloads at 24", I think we may have found the problem right there :)

However, let's look at the three main problems you cite here;

1. Shields. I know that double strength Klingon shield looks formidable, I know it can be demoralising to know everything you throw against it is halved. However, you have some things in your favour.

First, the majority of his ships will only get 1D when boosting shields and, I can tell you, a Klingon player is heartbroken when that rolls a 1 or a 2. You are getting 2D on most ships, and 3D on some. What a Klingon player would give!

So, in your first couple of turns, I would suggest every one of your ships boosts their shields.

Also, an important point to remember is this - a roll of a 6 penetrates double strength shields just as easily as your own.

2. Range. Yeah, Klingons are a bit smart at range. However, if you are boosting shields, he will have a tremendous problem doing much more than reducing your shields' boosted rating, leaving you pretty much unscathed (I know, there are lucky players who never seem to roll anything other than a 6, I have fought against them myself). Even the odd drone thrown in your direction at range should not bother you, as they are best dealt with phasers.

To do any telling damage, fleets have to come closer together - and that is _exactly_ where you want to be. Once you get within 8", your common phaser will start doing double damage and, considering how many the average Fed ship can muster on a target, that is some serious damage, whether it goes onto the front shields or no. On average, one in six will penetrate shields, so you should be getting a small handful of criticals every turn, whether or not his shields are down (and once they are down, he is _so_ vulnerable. True, he has phasers too, but they are no match for yours.

3. Overloading Disruptors. This is the bit I do not really get. If he is consistently getting overloaded disruptor hits on you (remember, he can only move 6", and they have a 6" range), then he is setting trap after trap for you, and your ships are flying right into it.

I think it would be very useful if you could post us a battle report so we can see exactly what is going on in your games - because it sounds like something is adrift!
MobileMarksmen wrote:Drones vs. Drones, I can either fire them, or use them as ADD, he can do both.
You have the choice to overwhelm him on both (not that I suggest you do, drones should be opportunity weapons for most fleets). You can have twice the ADD as most of his ships, or hammer him with more drones than he can handle.
MobileMarksmen wrote:and even if rolls a 1 some of the Klingon ships have ADD 2.
So do it again...

One last point, perhaps for your next game.

Ignore your photons. Seriously. I think you may be spending too much time trying to figure out how to get that magic hit. Don't. Plan to win the game _purely_ on your phasers. If a Klingon just happens to fly in front of you, well, take the opportunity to let those photons fly - but don't reload them. Don't reload unless your ship has literally no other special action worth taking.

Treat photons (and drones, for that matter) as 'opportunity' weapons, and you may find your self concentrating on different parts of your fleet, to your benefit.

I might also be inclined to say your most common Special Action should be to Boost Shields, as a Federation player, but opinion is divided on this.

Oh, and needless to say. Do not go into your next game expecting to lose. That tends to be self-fulfilling...

See if you can do us that battle report, as I am sure we wopuld all love to see it. And let us know how you get on with your next game!
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby MongooseMatt » Mon May 21, 2012 2:16 pm

MarkDawg wrote: I also think this balance issue has more to do with the fact Mongoose can't produce minis if I could make the 1000-1500 pt list I wanted instead of playing with one fed one klink squadron box I think things would be way different.
You want more ships? Order them! They are sitting on our shelves right _now_, just waiting for action!
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby billclo » Mon May 21, 2012 2:20 pm

msprange wrote:
MarkDawg wrote: I also think this balance issue has more to do with the fact Mongoose can't produce minis if I could make the 1000-1500 pt list I wanted instead of playing with one fed one klink squadron box I think things would be way different.
You want more ships? Order them! They are sitting on our shelves right _now_, just waiting for action!
I have to agree there. They're available, though sometimes it isn't immediately. I've bought 2 Fleet Boxes, 2 Squadron boxes and painted most of them up. I'm still waiting on 3 boxes of Fed Reinforcements (ordered May 7, still have no email saying they've shipped), but I'm prepared to wait a bit.

I have to amend that statement. If you are willing to order online direct from Mongoose the above applies. If you insist upon ordering through a local store, it becomes more iffy - does the distributor have any and can your store get any? More dicey for sure. I don't have any local store, so it has to be online order for me.
Last edited by billclo on Mon May 21, 2012 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby MongooseMatt » Mon May 21, 2012 2:21 pm

Halfbat wrote:An immediate difference is that I've never used the OCL or CFs against Klingons, using FFB instead of the OCL (better shield recharge and PTs). I've even given my OCL away - sure, on paper they look good (24/8 damage vs 12/4!) but the shield recharge is a key weapon against the Klingons.
I think the OCL is much maligned, and is in fact a good little ship! That said, I would not immediatly suggest it for a new player's first fleet.
Halfbat wrote:I've not tried the CFs yet against Klingons as (a) I only have one model and (b) my experience with highly mobile tabletop armies means I don't think it will help unless the Fed has several - all the Klingons are more maneouvreable ignoring the speed.
I agree with half of this :) Yes, Fast Cruisers should be used in pairs, I think, and _not_ be placed in the centre line (send them up on a flank!).

However, I don't think the Klingons agility is an issue for them. In one turn, they can be in position to strike anywhere in the flank of a Klingon fleet. That forces the Klingon player into a choice - either ignore them and get hit in the side, or turn a few ships to facem, which exposes their flank to the rest of your fleet.

What happens next is why you don't want just one Fast Cruiser on its own :)
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby H » Mon May 21, 2012 2:23 pm

hmm, "on paper" man U have a poor squad, aging players and a light midfield, in reality the right tactics took them to within seconds of a title.

and seriiously insulting players isn't going to get any help. If someone looses 8 straight games, perhaps it's their tactics, ship selection, a superior opponent? I think I lost every game I ever played of ACTA to reaverman, Not because i had a weak fleet, but because he outthought me, and on one occasion used a pretty cheesy tactic so despite handing his backside to him, he still won.

now, how about analysing everything properly, and sharing your experiances instead of making blanket statements. People on here can be helpful, and enough people have beaten the Klingons with feds, to show that even if not 100% balanced, it is indeed possible.
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Re: Klingon Disruptors are overpowered and unbalanced!

Postby McKinstry » Mon May 21, 2012 2:34 pm

msprange wrote:You want more ships? Order them! They are sitting on our shelves right _now_, just waiting for action!
Does this apply to Romulan Fleet Boxes in the US? I can't seem to get a response on those. :?

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