This ships

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Drahazar
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This ships

Postby Drahazar » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:26 pm

so when will there be variety in the ship designs. almost all of the design look the same with one or two minor difference's its kind of a turn off where are teh other designs like bird of pray and romulan war bird you know the big green one. And is that what the Gorn ships look like can't remember.
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Re: This ships

Postby H » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:45 pm

This is the licence! All the ships will look like the adb ones. Thee big green one is a next gen romulan ship not.covered by this licence, indeed the only next gen ship common with this licence would be the k'tinga class, which is a variant of the d7, depending what you read. Next gen, ds9 and enterprise ships will not appear in st cta, just a few specific original series shops, then a lot of adb designs,tos style clones...
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Re: This ships

Postby Drahazar » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:50 pm

oh that explains it not a big Trekkie fan just enjoyed the movies and watched some of the series with my dad back in the day. So was wondering where my favorite ships that looked cool went. Still would like to see more variety with the ships looks so Blah. Especially the Klingons and they have some of my favorite ship designs.
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Re: This ships

Postby H » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:54 pm

Drahazar wrote:oh that explains it not a big Trekkie fan just enjoyed the movies and watched some of the series with my dad back in the day. So was wondering where my favorite ships that looked cool went. Still would like to see more variety with the ships looks so Blah. Especially the Klingons and they have some of my favorite ship designs.
Tread carefully, some peeped are very passionate about these ship designs. Lol. The ships you like may be released by the next gen licence holders, but I'd wager this is the better game system.
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Re: This ships

Postby Da Boss » Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:58 pm

Personally I would like some new excting designs (especially for the Klingons) but that is not going to happen - The appearance of the SFU ships is extremely rigid and tied in to the history of the previous games in the universe. Its one of the reasons I don't bother commenting on the designs for new models and asking for radical changes. It would just upset people needlessly and would not gain anything.

when (and if :evil: :roll: ) I finally get my Klingon fleet box I will likely have some kitbashing to make designs I prefer but officially I think you will only ever see minor variations on the present designs - a extra phaser bump here or engine there.
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Re: This ships

Postby GalagaGalaxian » Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:06 pm

Non-Serious Answer: Ships generally look really similar in real life too. :wink:

Personally while I "like" the Bird of Prey and Vorcha and all that Movie + TNG onwards ships, they never looked Klingon. The Bird of Prey was originally supposed to be a Romulan ship, and it effected Klingon aesthetics from then on, turning their ships green (:shock:) and giving them cloaking devices!

Well, that and I disagree with the near-mindless "HONOORRRR!" berserker space vikings they became, instead of resourceful, cunning and clever Space Mongols. I've always prefer the TOS aesthetic, both in ships and the smooth foreheads!

Opinion obviously varies. :P

Now, if you want miniatures of that new stuff, I believe there is a Trek Clix game being produced by the Clix people, so you might be able to get minis from that and use them in your own personal games. No one is gonna tell you that you can't do that! From what I've seen of clix minis, they quality is, unfortunately, not too great and they're pre-painted, but it might be worth looking into.
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Re: This ships

Postby McKickaha » Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:07 pm

Da Boss wrote: - a extra phaser bump here or engine there.
hmm........ that sounds like radical design changes to me DB :wink:


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Re: This ships

Postby archon96 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:03 pm

always micromachines out there too, might be a bit pricey but you can still find em.
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Re: This ships

Postby Drahazar » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:11 pm

well I played the B5 ACTA really liked I have not looked at these rules yet it has my interest but the Designs are so BLAH and look so similar to each other at initial look its like all you have are the same ships. I will have to read the rules and maybe they will get me past the looks on the Klingons and I grew up with the TNG and I liked all the designs on the ships especially Klingons I did watch some of the old stuff and all the movies just wish the design where not repeated to much. Maybe over time better designs will come ore the other races might catch my eye. First ill just get the book and read. Man I miss B5
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Re: This ships

Postby emperorpenguin » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:17 pm

Certainly the Gorn ships and to a lesser degree the Klingons and Kzintis are very samey. I wonder why there was such a wide variety in ship hulls in the Star Fleet Command PC series, based on SFB, and how come ADB are not allowed use those designs?
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Re: This ships

Postby GalagaGalaxian » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:24 pm

Starfleet Command was a weird amalgamation of licenses (fun game though!). However, IIRC, all the ship designs used in that are property of Paramount or some other Trek License holder. This includes the "new" designs that aren't stuff like the Miranda, Constitution(refit), Excelsior, Bird of Prey, or K'tinga/D7(refit).
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Re: This ships

Postby archon96 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:33 pm

just curious what does paramount charge for a 5 year license.
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Re: This ships

Postby emperorpenguin » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:35 pm

But what about the SFB ships which look so different in that series, eg Firehawk, Condor, Gorn etc
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Re: This ships

Postby GalagaGalaxian » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:11 pm

emperorpenguin wrote:But what about the SFB ships which look so different in that series, eg Firehawk, Condor, Gorn etc
Those were designed by Interplay/Taldren and likely are the intellectual property of Paramount or whoever holds the appropriate Trek license (CBS?).
archon96 wrote:just curious what does paramount charge for a 5 year license.
Its Star Trek. I think we can safely assum "LOTS" There is a reason why the Trek licenses keeps bouncing around gaming companies. A 5 year license costs a lot and, usually whatever game its tied to gets dropped at the end of 5 years because it isn't profitable enough.

Amarillo Design Bureau's (ADB) license is limited in what "Cannon Trek" material it can use (portions of TOS and the Animated Series) however their license is (as I understand it) non-expiratory, assuming they remain faithful to its terms. This means don't use IP that they don't have the rights too (movies, TNG, etc), pay their royalties on time (Which I hear ADB has a iron clad reputation for paying their bills on time (and not just to Paramount, also I hear rumors that the royalty amounts are very cheap/favorable for ADB) and whatever else it requires. What this to us players is that as long as Mongoose and ADB are both satisfied with the current arrangement (and let's face it, everyone one who likes the aesthetic style LOVES these resin minis), this game will never go away, unlike B5:ACTA which died all too fast. :(

Star Fleet Battles has been chugging along for over 30 years now, and won't be stopping any time soon I bet. Call to Arms: Star Fleet may well do the same, AND its got 30 years of Star Fleet Battles material (200+ years of history, dozens of races and thousands of ships/variants) to draw on.

Star Fleet isn't Star Trek, but its got an appeal of its own. Plus no one is going to stop you from plunking down a Bird of Prey model as an F5 proxy, or using an Excelsior mini as a Kirov Battlecruiser. However, it can't be Mongoose who makes those minis. :(
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Re: This ships

Postby Da Boss » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:47 pm

GalagaGalaxian wrote:AND its got 30 years of Star Fleet Battles material (200+ years of history, dozens of races and thousands of ships/variants) to draw on.
(
Yes true but I think the issue for some of us (ok me) is for instance how many actual different Klingon models are there: as far as I can see there are only really 4:

The Frigate - slight variations in size and one which is half of the ship removed and one with a engine stuck on top
The Cruiser- D6, D7, C7 - same ship with minor chnages and the latter with half an extra engine
The War Cruiser: a bit different to the above but not a lot.........
The Dreadnought: There seems to be a bit bigger version with two engines stuck on the bottom.

It would be nice to have some more varied and exciting new designs but its clear this is forbidden - oh well............
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Re: This ships

Postby GalagaGalaxian » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:31 pm

And regular Star Trek isn't guilty of that? :|

I mean, most Trek Federation ships have the same two layout (saucer+cigar+engines or saucer+engines), just differing greebles. Sure the Connie Refit and a Galaxy look modestly different, and the exact proportions are different, but they've got the same general layout. Plus in normal Trek (TOS to VOY) you're seeing over a hundred years of ship designs, while Star Fleet most of the ships (and not just the Federation) cover a period of only a couple decades (exception: The Texas OCL, which is over a hundred years old by the General War shows an earlier design style with modern engines slapped on, and the Romulans have a stark contrast between their decades old Eagle series and the brand-spanking-new Hawk series).

Normal Trek's Klingons are even worse, they also have only 4 ships!

The K'tinga/D7, the BoP (the most hilariously inconsistent ship in star trek), the Vor'cha, and the Negh'Var. And they all share the same general layout, and the Negh'Var is basically an enlarged Vorcha with some extra stuff stuck on (the TNG model makers pretty much just ripped half their Vorcha model apart to build the Negh'Var model).

Cardassians, 3 main ships, the little Hideki, the Galor, and the Keldon, and the Keldon is a Galor with some extra bits stuck on.

The Romulans are a bit more varied in look but also only 4 ships, Warbird, D'deridex, Scout thingie, That Ship from Nemesis, but ironically I'd honestly say that if you dig into the fluff the Star Fleet Universe Romulans are far better developed than the Romulans ever were in normal Trek (which is one of my biggest regrets in Normal Trek, if they had gotten half the awesome development the Cardassians did...).

Dominion only have a few ships as well, same with the Borg.


I understand if you don't like the 60s style TOS aesthetic. However, I do not understand the perceived lack of variety compared to normal star trek. The only really varied group is the Federation (who are, of course, the main characters and get the most development) and even then the majority of Federation ships come very different generations ship design and service but use the same 2 "generic" layouts as well.
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Re: This ships

Postby Da Boss » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:50 pm

Fair point re the actual show but when I look at some the games based on the show I see loads of cool designs that continue basic themes but are quite different.

Example on my desk:

Star Trek Armada II - There are 10 very different designs in the Klingon fleet, 15 in the Federation, 12 Borg, 16 Romulan etc.......

Like I said - I am aware that its not going to change......
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Re: This ships

Postby H » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:56 pm

i think the point was, you "could" have done more, but haven't done, by you, I mean the designers, not you personally :-)

look at B5, Canon Narn, 2 ships and a figter, Centauri, 2 ships and a fighter, Minbari, 2 ships, a fighter and a flyer... you see where this is leading no doubt. as B5wars, then B5 ACTA, expanded that to ummm, lets see, Narn. 2 fighters, 1 patrol, 4 skirmish, 4 raid, 1 battle, 2 war, 1 armageddon design (base designs, not variants).
personally, i like the classic Klingon look, but I like the difference for the D5?f5 whatever it's called. I have to say, my biggest dissapointment is the Feds, which I find poor, and then the "other" races, the Kzinti are dismal, and the most horrible ships I have ever seen, BUT I know some people like em.

I know their is a limit to what you can use on screen, but surely their was more leeway for cooler non canon..that said, I have heard tell of the "passion" of the current player base for trek, and even adding a few nobbly bits causes a grave amount o teeth nashing.
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Re: This ships

Postby GalagaGalaxian » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:28 pm

Part of the reason for the samey layouts is because Star Fleet takes inspiration from real world Military aesthetic. In the real world most ships are pretty sameish, in fact many are just enlarged or modified versions of another ship. A good example would be the WWII Kriegsmarine Admiral Hipper class Cruisers, Scharnhorst class Battlecruisers and Bismarck class Battleships, all the same basic layout and design, just differing scale and number of turrets/barrels-per-turret. Aircraft are a bit more varied, but still stick to the same overall appearances.

Now I don't completely agree with this, but I do love the sense of "realism" and consistency it gives.
Da Boss wrote:Fair point re the actual show but when I look at some the games based on the show I see loads of cool designs that continue basic themes but are quite different.
Aye, but all those ships would possibly come with additional royalties required to whatever game company designed them.

We already see this in Star Fleet a bit, the Franz Joseph Technical Manual designs (Ptolemy Class Tug, Saladin class Destroyer, Hermes Class Scout, and the original "DN" version of the Federation Class Dreadnought) have all be relegated to a single squadron box (alongside the Franz Joseph version of the Constitution) to make the additional royalty easier to keep track of the book-keeping.


[edit] What I'd love to see is CTA:Star Fleet be so successful it encourages the development of an "Official Star Trek Miniatures" game to rival it, then we can have our cake and eat it too! :D Unfortunately, given the current Trek Game license is in the hands of WhizKids, I think we're gonna have to settle for the mediocre Clix plastics. :(
Last edited by GalagaGalaxian on Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: This ships

Postby Da Boss » Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:37 pm

Not really - many of those in the book are made up for the game - so they are made up unique designs which follow the basic aeasthetic. I ma not talking about using other peoples designs but more variety in the ships available........

still I guess its all a bit irrlevent in the end........

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