ESG poll

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.

ESGs - Reload or Power Drain?

ESGs require a Reload SA after they fire
10
71%
ESGs may fire every turn, but cause a Power Drain
2
14%
Something else (please post an explanation)
2
14%
 
Total votes: 14
Nomad
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ESG poll

Postby Nomad » Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:08 pm

The Expanding Sphere Generator is a heavy weapon used by the Lyran Empire along with Disruptors. It creates a close-range 'pulse' of destructive energy centred on the Lyran ship. It is used to 'ram' enemy ships, to destroy incoming drones and to intercept Hydran Hellbore attacks.

In the SFU, the ESG is a very powerful weapon whose use is balanced by it's huge power requirements.

How would you like to see this power use represented in ACTA?
Last edited by Nomad on Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Poi
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Poi » Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:12 pm

As a non-SFB player, I have no idea what an ESG is.
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Re: ESG poll

Postby scoutdad » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:30 pm

An ESG [Expanding Sphere Generator] is a ships system that creates sphere of energy surrounding the ship. This burst damages everything that contacts it... friend or foe.

I SFB, you can establish the ESG at various ranges... 0 hexes out to 3 hexes. The amount of power applied and the range its set to determines the effective strength.
In Fed Comm, you have various modes of opperation.
Defensive Burst hits seeking wepaons that have impacted the ship and destroys them (if enough power is allocated)
Offensive Burst expands out to the 6 hexes surrounding teh ship and damages everythign in those hexes.
Anti-hellbore mode - causes Hellbore Cannons to hit automatically but great amounts of the HB damage are negated as the weapon implodes on the expandings sphere.

Since this weapon can be used every turn in both of the other systems, is will have to be allowed to function every turn in ACTA.
The power requirements really aren't all that severe. 5 points of power allows you the maximum damage and the ESG capacitors allow you to store excess energy from turn to turn.
With the limited range the weapon has in Fed Comm, I'd expect it gets uses for defensive actions much more than offensive, so I see no reason to treat it any differently than most other weapons.
Fire every turn, no power drain, etc.
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Re: ESG poll

Postby billclo » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:42 pm

Though it's been a long time since I played SFB, and even longer since I dealt with ESGs, I seem to recall they required a 32-impulse cooldown period? If that's so, I vote for 1 turn "reload" special action for all ESGs that have been fired.
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Nomad » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:09 pm

Since this weapon can be used every turn in both of the other systems
Sorry, not so.
Though it's been a long time since I played SFB, and even longer since I dealt with ESGs, I seem to recall they required a 32-impulse cooldown period?
Correct.

A Lyran Tiger-class heavy cruiser generates 37 points of power per turn in SFB and FC. Fully powering both of her two ESGs costs 10 points in total. If she fires all her phasers (8 points) and standard-loads her disruptors (another eight) she'll be crawling along at 8 hexes per turn in FC, and slower than that in SFB where she'll also have to pay for shields, life support and fire-control.

If she tries to *overload* her disruptors, she'll barely move at all.
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Da Boss
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Da Boss » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:39 pm

Initial thoughts (disclaimer: I don't kow what proportion of the ships weapon the ESG represents and if they come in different sizes)

It might be better as a Trait linked to a Special Action with the Power drain affect than a weapon?
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Nomad » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:42 pm

Da Boss wrote:Initial thoughts (disclaimer: I don't kow what proportion of the ships weapon the ESG represents and if they come in different sizes)

It might be better as a Trait linked to a Special Action with the Power drain affect than a weapon?
Not a bad idea.
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Da Boss » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:55 pm

Ok then ;)

New Special Trait: Expanding Sphere Generator,
This ship is equipped with a expanding Sphere Generator.

New Special Action:
Power the ESG!
Crew Quality Check: Automatic
Power Drain: Yes
Effect: This special action may only be used by ships that have the Expanding Sphere Generator trait. See below for more details

Special Rules
To activate a ESG, a ship must use the Power the ESG! Special Action at the start of its turn adn declare in which mode it is being used.

Mode 1 Defensive
Until the start of this ships next turn or until the special action of ESG trait is lost, weapons with the seeking trait cannot be used against this ship.

Mode 2 Offensive
In the Attack phase when this ship is activated, all other ships, stations and shuttles wihtin 3" of this ship are hit with a X AD(*) attack with the following traits: (*)

Mode 3 Anti-Hellbore
Any Hellbore weapons used against this ship automatically hit but loose all traits

(*) I have no idea how powerful a weapon it is?
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Nomad » Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:12 pm

In Defensive mode, ESGs only affect Drones, not Plasmas. Multiple drone hits can overwhelm them, so I'd suggest each active ESG in Defense mode stops each incoming drone on a roll of 2+.

ESGs are all identical, but ships carry one (destroyers and frigates), two (cruisers) or four (anything bigger) of them.

In Offensive mode, I gave them 10 damage points each (in FC, a fully powered ESG will inflict 25% more damage than an overloaded Photon). I'd suggest this is treated as auto-hit 'area effect' damage like a drone hit, so it won't bypass shields.

Again, multiple HB hits will overwhelm ESGs - in FC, about the only effective HB strategy against the Lyrans is to gang up several HB ships against one of theirs. Roughly speaking, Each ESG will nerf one short-range or two long-range HB shots.

How about - "If an ESG is used in Anti-Hellbore mode, all HBs fired by the attacking ship auto-hit. Each HB shot is stopped on a roll of 3+. That ESG is then counted as 'fired' and cannot be used again on that turn".
Last edited by Nomad on Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Da Boss
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Da Boss » Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:24 pm

Revised ;)

New Special Trait: ESG: Expanding Sphere Generator,
This ship is equipped with a ESG or expanding Sphere Generator.

New Special Action:
Power the ESG!
Crew Quality Check: Automatic
Power Drain: Yes
Effect: This special action may only be used by ships that have the Expanding Sphere Generator trait. See below for more details

Special Rules
To activate a ESG, a ship must use the Power the ESG! Special Action at the start of its turn adn declare in which mode it is being used.

Mode 1 Defensive
Until the start of this ships next turn or until the Special Action or ESG trait is lost, the ships gains Anti-Drone X - where X is equal to the ESG trait - ie if a Cruiser has the ESG 2 it gains Anti-Drone 2 until the start of its next turn. This is cumlative with any anti-drone trait it already has and the ESG trait is not reduced by the anti-drone running out of ammunition.

Mode 2 Offensive
In the Attack phase when this ship is activated, all other ships, stations and shuttles wihtin 3" of this ship are hit with a (ESG Trait) AD attack with the following traits: Devestating: 2, Multihit: 5, This attack will not bypass Shields (if present) on a roll of a 6.

Mode 3 Anti-Hellbore
The Ship may ignore X hellbore weapons per turn wheere X = the ESG trait

:D
Nomad
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Nomad » Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:28 pm

I like it.

Damn. Now I'll have to start another poll! :D

Edit - I have to drive to Scotland tonight, and I'll have restricted keyboard time for the next week. Over to you...
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Iron Domokun
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Iron Domokun » Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:35 pm

Given that many of us don't even have our rulebooks or pre-ordered models yet, and the official rules for Lyrans may or may not appear in the next product which is pencilled in for September next year, this thread seems rather premature.
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Iain McGhee » Mon Dec 26, 2011 6:15 pm

Not if folk want to ballpark stats so they can use their current SL 2400 fleets with ACTA until the official stats appear.
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Sgt_G » Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:25 am

"Special Rules: To activate a ESG, a ship must use the Power the ESG! Special Action at the start of its turn and declare in which mode it is being used."

I would suggest a slight change to make it read as:

"Special Rules: To activate a ESG, a ship must use the Power the ESG! Special Action at the start of its turn, and at the point of activation it must declare in which mode is being used."

The way you wrote it, it was unclear whether you must declare the mode at the start of the turn or when it's to be used. If you meant for the mode to be declared at the start of the turn, before any ship gets to move, I do beleive the ESG would be effectively neutered.
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Asguard101
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Asguard101 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:00 pm

If I remember the Hellbore vs. ESG rules, all Hellbores automaticly hit a active ESG ship, in that turn.

if you are goign to use the "Mode 3 Anti-Hellbore - The Ship may ignore X hellbore weapons per turn wheere X = the ESG trait", i'd think you would need to add all hellbores fired at this ship automaticlly hit - minus the trait level.

I may be wrong, I don't use the Lyrans very much.
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Asguard101 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:03 pm

I'd also suggest SA for different power level. A low powered ESG wouldn't cause a power drain, but wouldn't absorb or do as much damage; where as a fully powered ESG would be able to absorb more and do more damage, but could very well cause a power drain, if other weapons are fired.
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Iapologisedon4chan » Tue Dec 27, 2011 4:20 pm

Asguard101 wrote:I'd also suggest SA for different power level. A low powered ESG wouldn't cause a power drain, but wouldn't absorb or do as much damage; where as a fully powered ESG would be able to absorb more and do more damage, but could very well cause a power drain, if other weapons are fired.
Surely at this point it begins to become overcomplicated for the scope of SF:CTA. If you want a game with variable field sizes and energy usage, then perhaps you should play SFB instead.
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Da Boss » Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:19 pm

@ Asguard

I do think that over complicates it - we don't want to have to track anyhting more than is neccesary. The level of the ESG trait already covers how powerful the ESG is on the ship?
The Mode III adment re Hellbores auto hitting seems ok - depending on good Hellbores are.

@ Sgt G

not sure yet - would have to test it ;)
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Sgt_G » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:51 pm

Da Boss, here what I think your playtest will find. If you must declare which mode is being used before movement, the ESG is easily neutralized. If you say you're going to use if offensively, they I just try to keep the range open so you can't ram me; whereas if you say defensive, I can close range but choice to not fire drones. By making the choice known at the point of activation rather than at the start of the turn, you force me to guess your intentions. It's not like you have to declare what weapons you intend to fire, or whether or not you'll cloak / decloak, before anthing moves, so why should ESG be different?

Also, seeing as it doesn't take all THAT much power in SFB/FedCmdr (1 to 5 points) to charge ESG, I'm not sure why you need any Special Action to use power them. Now, if you want to have a turn of cool-down between uses, that could work.
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Re: ESG poll

Postby Da Boss » Tue Dec 27, 2011 11:02 pm

Sgt_G wrote:Da Boss, here what I think your playtest will find. If you must declare which mode is being used before movement, the ESG is easily neutralized. If you say you're going to use if offensively, they I just try to keep the range open so you can't ram me; whereas if you say defensive, I can close range but choice to not fire drones. By making the choice known at the point of activation rather than at the start of the turn, you force me to guess your intentions. It's not like you have to declare what weapons you intend to fire, or whether or not you'll cloak / decloak, before anthing moves, so why should ESG be different?

Also, seeing as it doesn't take all THAT much power in SFB/FedCmdr (1 to 5 points) to charge ESG, I'm not sure why you need any Special Action to use power them. Now, if you want to have a turn of cool-down between uses, that could work.
Hmm - well actually you have to declare anything related to cloaking at the very start of the turn - p16 of the rules - in fact how this is handled is one of the things i looked at when thinking about the ESG.

Power - well it represent the whole of the ESG beign used not one of them - making it a weapon seems to be quite complicated - this is easier (which is more the ACTA way). I was going with Nomads notes tht powering the ESG is quite a big drain on the ships overall abilities....

You may well be right about the order of activation - not sure yet.

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