B5 crit table - updated to NA system

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AdrianH
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Postby AdrianH » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:08 pm

Any resolution on the problem with "-1 to hit" for beams?
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Postby Burger » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:22 pm

Hmm no not really. Might be easier to change it to another -1 AD. But that does affect some ships more than others (ie. White Star would be boned, whereas Nova would barely notice). Seems like the best solution though.
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Postby AdrianH » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:50 pm

Looking at the Noble Armada criticals table previewed in S&P, that has:
Weapons 1: Targeting Systems Damaged: All weapon systems gain Inaccurate trait.
Weapons 2: Power Disrupted: All weapons –1 Attack Dice

For inaccurate fire in B5, maybe do something similar to Drazi "Start Attack Run" - all hits need to be confirmed by a re-roll, twin-linked don't re-roll hits or misses. Make beams confirm by needing a 4+ on the re-roll regardless of which system was used to resolve hits in the first place.

(Incidentally, the suggested table has the effects swapped between criticals 1 and 2 - maybe swap the labels as well? :))
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Postby Burger » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:55 pm

Inaccurate is the same as weak in B5, which is what I was aiming for with the -1 to attack rolls. Since there's a lot of AP and SAP in B5, cancelling that and replacing it with Weak would seem like a bit too nasty for a level 2 crit.

Confirming hits also seems nasty for a level 2 crit.

So far I think best to change it for another -1 AD.
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Postby Iain McGhee » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:05 pm

Perhaps a variation on what Da Boss suggested. How about increasing the number to achieve re-rolls for beams to 6 only (with Burger's Beam System) with no other change to hit numbers ? Probably not the equivalent to giving other weapon types a -1 to hit maths-wise, but it feels about right to me. Doesn't completely castrate White Stars and Drazi :)
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Postby basaint » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:30 pm

AHHHH, it makes sense now Burg. Thx
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Postby Centauri_Admiral » Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:32 am

Basaint - what target said probably confused you more, with including 3 crits in his example, plus double damage etc weapons. Burgers proposal is that double, triple and quad damage weapons dont do 2, 3 and 4 levels of the appropriate crit table respectively. They would only add 1 level, but would still modify the damage and crew for the respective crit.

Assume you do 1 crit, its on engines, you apply the level 1 crit, modify its damage and crew for appropriate weapons. If you score two engine crits, you would apply the level 2 engine crit and so on.

Given that imo, the crit system for B5 is what spoils it, I whole heartedly welcome Marks converted crit system . . . and I already like it a lot. :)

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Re: B5 crit table - updated to NA system

Postby Target » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:02 pm

Burger wrote:Well I've given it a go, see what you think?

First issue is that unlike B5, the crits in NA are cumulative, ie. speed -1, speed -1, speed -1 and speed -2 equals speed -5. So I have downgraded some of them accordingly. -4 speed after -2 and 2x -1 would be -8 in total which would make many ships stopped!

Second issue is that in B5, some of the higher-up crits are actually not as bad as the lower down ones. For example power fluctiations is generally worse than weapons offline (depending on the ship). So I have switched the order of some.

Thirdly I have added in some new ones and borrowed them from NA, to make 6 different crits in each section.

Fourthly I don't think double, triple and quad damage should move you 2, 3 and 4 up the crit table, like Devastating does in NA! That would be too... devastating, since double and triple damage are reasonably common in B5. Instead I would say just increase the crit level by 1 and double, triple or quadruple the damage and crew reductions - as normal in B5.

So, on with my table...

Code: Select all

1-2 WEAPONS

1    POWER RELAYS DESTROYED              -    -   -1 SPEED
2    FUEL SYSTEM RUPTURED               +1   +1   -1 SPEED
3    MULTIPLE FIRES                     +1   +2   -1 SPEED
4    THRUSTERS DAMAGED                  +2   +1   -2 SPEED
5    FUEL SYSTEM RUPTURED              +D6  +D6   REACTOR CRITICAL +1
6    ENGINES DISABLED                  +D6  +D6   SHIP ADRIFT


3 REACTOR CRITICALS

1    CAPACITORS DAMAGED                 +1    -   LOSE 1 RANDOM TRAIT
2    REACTOR GAS LEAK                    -   +2   NO SPECIAL ACTIONS
3    POWER FEEDBACK                     +2   +1   -2 SPEED
4    REACTOR OVERLOAD                   +1   +2   WEAPONS CRITICAL +1
5    REACTOR BREACH                    +D6   +2   SHIP ADRIFT
6    REACTOR EXPLOSION                 +D6  +D6   NO SPECIAL ACTIONS, LOSE 1 RANDOM TRAIT


4 WEAPON CRITICALS

1    TARGETING SYSTEM DAMAGED            -   +1   ALL WEAPONS LOSE 1AD
2    POWER DISRUPTED                    +1   +1   ALL WEAPONS AT -1 PENALTY TO HIT
3    WEAPONS OFFLINE                    +2   +1   1 RANDOM WEAPON SYSTEM CANNOT FIRE
4    WEAPONS CONTROL                    +1    -   ALL WEAPONS IN 1 RANDOM ARC CANNOT FIRE
5    POWER FLUCTUATIONS                  -    -   EACH WEAPON NEEDS 4+ TO FIRE
6    CATASTROPHIC AMMUNITION EXPLOSION  +3   +4   NO WEAPONS MAY FIRE


5 CREW CRITICALS

1    FIRE                                -   +1   TROOPS -1
2    MULTIPLE FIRES                      -   +2   TROOPS -2
3    SECONDARY EXPLOSIONS               +1   +3   DAMAGE CONTROL AND CQ CHECKS AT -1 PENALTY
4    LOCALIZED DECOMPRESSION            +1   +3   -1 TROOPS, NO SPECIAL ACTIONS
5    CREW SHAKEN                         -  +D6   MUST ROLL 4+ BEFORE FIRING EACH WEAPON
6    HULL BREACH                       +D6  +D6   -2 TROOPS, NO DAMAGE CONTROL, NO SPECIAL ACTIONS


6 VITAL SYSTEMS CRITICALS

1    BRIDGE HIT                          -   +1   NO SPECIAL ACTIONS
2    SECONDARY EXPLOSIONS              +D6  +D6   DAMAGE CONTROL AND CQ CHECKS AT -1 PENALTY
3    WEAPONS CONTROL                     3    4   WEAPONS CRITICAL +1
4    ENGINEERING                         4    3   CREW CRITICAL +1
5    REACTOR IMPLOSION                +2D6 +4D6   LOSE 1 RANDOM TRAIT
6    CATASTROPHIC EXPLOSION           +4D6 +2D6   LOSE 2 RANDOM TRAITS
I was thinking maybe Double Dam shouldn't move you up 2 as thats nearly every weapon on the Centauri fleet. It might make them uber powerful
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Re: B5 crit table - updated to NA system

Postby Burger » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:27 am

Target wrote:I was thinking maybe Double Dam shouldn't move you up 2 as thats nearly every weapon on the Centauri fleet. It might make them uber powerful
Indeed, read "fourthly" in the original post :)
It would be much too devastating for Shadows and Vorlons too, triple and quad damage would basically mean you're practically disabled if you take any crits, and most of their weapons are precise....
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Postby Da Boss » Sat Jul 09, 2011 12:43 pm

Played a test game with Paul (Clanger)

5 pt Battle - Centauri vs EA Crusade

no real issue arose about the crit system, however I think anyone playing needs to be aware that it makes the game different...

crits are often annoying but seldom more than that,
Ships died before more than 1 in any section - most we got upto was 3 but that turn the Dargan had taken the fornt weapons of a Warlock and was vapourised - the 11 dice beam hit did not help!
There is not the same sense of worry/hope/anticipation when a crit is rolled as its - ah well only going to be a minor hit. Some will prefer this as the game is a bit more predictable (except with beams!!!)
Whilst devestating and double damage would be too much - the crit table is very diffciult to advance up.
In order to make it work properly probably need to convert the weapon system to NA.............

It was good fun game and I'll try and sort out a full report but I still prefer nromal ACTA crits - even against Paul and his Dice of Doom !
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Postby Clanger » Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:43 pm

Though I do like the Noble Armada Critical system. It works in the context of that game. B5 has a more cinematic / space opera feel to it. I think the B5 Critical system works fine as is.

With the amount of Damage B5 ships have compared to NA ships makes a big difference.

Agree with Da Boss to make the Crit system work you would have to convert the weapons to NA type weapons in terms of multi hit. Double Damage becomes multi hit 2, Triple Damage becomes multi hit 3 and Quad Damage become multi hit 4. Also some weapons should would need to be Devestating to make the Critical system be nasty.
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Re: B5 crit table - updated to NA system

Postby Target » Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:38 pm

Burger wrote:
Target wrote:I was thinking maybe Double Dam shouldn't move you up 2 as thats nearly every weapon on the Centauri fleet. It might make them uber powerful
Indeed, read "fourthly" in the original post :)
It would be much too devastating for Shadows and Vorlons too, triple and quad damage would basically mean you're practically disabled if you take any crits, and most of their weapons are precise....
I can't believe i missed that most especially since it's explains everything :lol:
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Postby Target » Mon Jul 11, 2011 8:47 pm

Da Boss wrote:Played a test game with Paul (Clanger)

5 pt Battle - Centauri vs EA Crusade

no real issue arose about the crit system, however I think anyone playing needs to be aware that it makes the game different...

crits are often annoying but seldom more than that,
Ships died before more than 1 in any section - most we got upto was 3 but that turn the Dargan had taken the fornt weapons of a Warlock and was vapourised - the 11 dice beam hit did not help!
There is not the same sense of worry/hope/anticipation when a crit is rolled as its - ah well only going to be a minor hit. Some will prefer this as the game is a bit more predictable (except with beams!!!)
Whilst devestating and double damage would be too much - the crit table is very diffciult to advance up.
In order to make it work properly probably need to convert the weapon system to NA.............

It was good fun game and I'll try and sort out a full report but I still prefer nromal ACTA crits - even against Paul and his Dice of Doom !
Do you reckon if the main weapons of the ship had Devastating it would help? Or would Devastating & Beams be to Horrific
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Postby Target » Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:25 am

Or another roll of 6 or 5,6 for precise crit to see if it goes up another level. Continue till fail. Just a thought
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Postby Burger » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:25 am

Hmm, thanks for testing it. I can see the point about losing the worry and excitement of crits.
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Postby Da Boss » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:47 am

I'd love to test more - but also be interested to see how others find it in comparisson ?!
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Postby Rick » Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:44 am

I would be tempted to put the escalation rules back in. When we play NA, that does add a certain amount of worry to the crits.
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Postby AdrianH » Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:04 am

Burger wrote:Criticals cannot be repaired in the same turn that they are inflicted. They can be repaired on the next turn, with a successful CQ check of 9 or higher. You can only attempt to repair crits in one area each turn, and when you successfully repair it you reduce the level in that area by 1. The critical effects are cancelled, but you do not get back the damage/crew loss. All Hands On Deck allows you to attempt repairs in multiple areas, you roll 1 D6 per area, and reduce that area's critical level by CQ + D6 - 6 (if positive!). Shadows and Vorlons repair all crits automatically in the turn after they are inflicted.
I had a chance to try this during the weekend and one issue came up, which is:

Suppose you take a critical hit this turn in an area which already had a critical hit in a previous turn. Can you attempt to repair that area? For example, an Omega took an Engines critical last turn and is at level 1, then takes another Engines critical this turn and is now at level 2.

If it's allowed to repair Engines because it was hit there last turn then the level drops back to 1, i.e. it actually repairs the critical it took this turn.

If it's not allowed to repair the critical it took this turn then it can't repair Engines at all this turn. Tough luck if it declared "All Hands on Deck", then took six criticals, one in each level!

We played the strict version, i.e. you can't repair a critical that you took this turn, meaning you can't repair an area which was hit this turn. This was partly because I was playing Shadows and that was the only way they could possibly get to higher level crits (we weren't playing the seriously weakened version of Shadows auto-repair that says you can only repair 1 crit if you're a Scout).

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