40k Mod on the basis of the SST Core Rules

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Arkon4000
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40k Mod on the basis of the SST Core Rules

Postby Arkon4000 » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:27 am

Hi Community,

I have needed some days to think about if I start a second try with my 40k-mod-project to Starship Troopers, in this forum. For my first try I had used an old thread that dealt with similar issues. Unfortunately this thread was deleted from unknown reasons for me.

But here in this forum are enough people who are familiar with the SST rules, so I have decided to try it again with an own thread about my project.

However, I would like to know in advance if there is still interest in this project or if there are any reasons that speak against this thread or my project. I want to avoid that this thread will be deleted.

I would be happy to receive some feedback.

Greetz
Arkon
wolfprophet
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Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:51 pm

Postby wolfprophet » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:04 am

Still interested. Not going to post those Tau stats until we've seen the thread not die just yet....
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basaint
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Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA

Postby basaint » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:13 am

Id like to see some things. Im not a 40k person but it might draw some players around here into a mashup game for us SST-ers.
Arkon4000
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Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:38 am

Space Marine - Unit Profiles / Weaponslist / Army List

Postby Arkon4000 » Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:24 am

Hi Community,

I am glad that despite the deletion of the last thread, some people still have interest in this idea. So let us bring this project back on the stand that we had in the old thread.

But at first I would like to write some short words of introduction for the people who have not followed the previous thread.

I hear by a lucky coincidence about the rules for Starship Troopers. I was very impressed by the rules and after I had dealt with them, I had the idea to use them for WH40K.

Starting point of my work are the rules of SST 1.0 and the post-Klendathu mod of Galatea. Some people maybe know the mod from the Evocommand forum. My own thread about my mod is died with the evocommand forum. Therefore, I would like to present here my work done so far.

In my view, a direct transfer of rules and values from 40k to SST makes no sense. Consequently I used the background as a source of inspiration to find an atmospheric but fair basis for the values. An additional goal I have set myself that this mod is compatible with the other SST armies. This mod should give the players the possiblity to play battles between MI vs. Space Marines or Space Marines vs. Bugs.

I have focused my past work on the Space Marines because they represent the most famous and also one of the most flexible army in WH40K universe.

At first I wanted to show you what I've done so far in exploring the individual units of the Space Marines. The values are not yet fully defined. It should still needed a bit of detailed work. I would like to give you an overview of the individual units. I have highlighted some values with a (?). With these values, I'm not sure if they make sense in the gameplay and whether they fit to the background. At this point, some suggestions or criticisms would be helpful. I have listed the new traits below for explanation.

I'm currently working on a formula for the points cost. Consequently, the previously specified points costs are not yet final. But they give the approximate direction.

I have divided the units into 6 different categories. I'll explain later my ideas for the army selection and command structure.

Unit Profile for Space Marines Infantry

HQ

Space Marine Captain
Value: 300
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 4+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/3 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Force Leader - Shoot on the run - Elite

Space Marine Chaplain
Value: 250
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 4+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Force Leader - Shoot on the run - Elite

Space Marine Veteran
Value: 200
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 5+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Force Leader - Shoot on the run - Elite

Basic Assets

Space Marine Scout - Sergeant
Value: 100
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+1
Target: 4+
Save: 4+ / 5+
Kill: 9+
Traits: Hits/2 - Ambush - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Stealthy (2 ") - Veteran

Space Marine Scout
Value: 80
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: D6+1
Target: 4+
Save: 4+ / 5+
Kill: 8+
Traits: Hits/2 - Ambush - Specilist - Shoot on the run - Stealthy (2 ")

Tactical Space Marine - Sergeant
Value: 130
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 5+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Veteran

Tactical Space Marine
Value: 100
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: D6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / -
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Independent - Shoot on the run - Veteran

Assault Space Marine - Sergeant
Value: 160
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 5+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Jump/12 " - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Veteran

Assault Space Marine
Value: 130
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: D6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / -
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Jump/12 " - Independent - Shoot on the run - Veteran

Devastator Space Marine - Sergeant
Value: 150
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 5+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Veteran

Devastator Space Marine
Value: 120
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: D6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / -
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Independent - Shoot on the run - Veteran

Space Marine Bike
Value: As rider + 75
Size: 2
Move: 6 "
CC: As rider + 2
Target: 6+
Save: As rider / 5+
Kill: As Rider
Traits: As Rider - Wheel/18 "

Space Marine Trike
Value: As rider + 100
Size: 2
Move: 6 "
CC: As rider + 3
Target: 6+
Save: As Rider / 5+
Kill: As Rider + 1
Traits: As Rider - Hits/3 - Wheel/18 "

Space Marine Land Speeder
Value: 180
Size: 3
Move: 8 "
CC: 2xD10
Target: 6+
Save: 4+ / 5+
Kill: 9+
Traits: Hits/3 - Hover/18 "

Space Marine Rhino
Value: 100
Size: 4
Move: 6 "
CC: 4xD10
Target: 7+
Save: 3+ / -
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/4

Space Marine Razorback
Value: 150
Size: 4
Move: 6 "
CC: 4xD10
Target: 7+
Save: 3+ / -
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/4

First Company Assets

Sternguard Space Marine - Sergeant
Value: 200
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 5+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

Sternguard Space Marine
Value: 170
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / -
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

Vanguard Space Marine - Sergeant
Value: 230
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 5+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Jump/12 " - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

Vanguard Space Marine
Value: 130
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / -
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Jump/12 " - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

Space Marine Terminator - Sergeant
Value: 230
Size: 2
Move: 5 "
CC: 2xD10
Target: 7+
Save: 2+ / 5+
Kill: 12+
Traits: Hits/3 - Piercing/2 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

Space Marine Terminator
Value: 200
Size: 2
Move: 5 "
CC: 2xD10
Target: 7+
Save: 2+ / -
Kill: 12+
Traits: Hits/3 - Piercing/2 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

Space Marine Assault Terminator - Sergeant
Value: 230
Size: 2
Move: 5 "
CC: 2xD10
Target: 7+
Save: 2+ / 5+
Kill: 12+
Traits: Hits/3 - Piercing/2 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

Space Marine Assault Terminator
Value: 200
Size: 2
Move: 5 "
CC: 2xD10
Target: 7+
Save: 2+ / -
Kill: 12+
Traits: Hits/3 - Piercing/2 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

Command Assets

Space Marine Librarian
Value: 250
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 4+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Psyker/2 - Shoot on the run - Elite

Space Marine Dreadnought
Value: 250
Size: 3
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD10+3 (?)
Target: 7+
Save: 3+ / 5+
Kill: 12+
Traits: Hits/5 - Piercing/2 - Parry (?) - Retaliate (?) - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

Armory Assets

Space Marine Whirlwind
Value: 150-200
Size: 4
Move: 6 "
CC: 4xD10
Target: 7+
Save: 3+ / -
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/4

Space Marine Predator
Value: 250-300
Size: 4
Move: 6 "
CC: 4xD10
Target: 7+
Save: 3+ / -
Kill: 12+
Traits: Hits/5

Space Marine Vindicator
Value: 250-300
Size: 4
Move: 6 "
CC: 4xD10
Target: 7+
Save: 3+ / -
Kill: 12+
Traits: Hits/5

Space Marine Land Raider
Value: 400-500
Size: 5
Move: 6 "
CC: 4xD10+2
Target: 8+
Save: 2+ / -
Kill: 14+
Traits: Hits/6

Fleet Assets

Space Marine Drop Pod
Value: 100-150
Size: 3
Move: Burn
CC: XXX (?)
Target: 7+
Save: 3+ / 5+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/4

Unit Traits for Space Marines

Ambush
The model/unit may be deployed in an ambush position. Write the location of the unit down at the start of the game before any models are placed. The unit may be hidden in any piece of terrain (please use common sense here – you can't place a unit of 15 Mimics in a stone barely the size of a Trooper).
The model/unit may be revealed at any time during the game but may only react to enemy units that completed an action in their reaction radius AFTER they have been revealed. The unit must be revealed until the end of turn four (or in games longer than 6 turns before 2/3 of the game turns have been played) or is counted as a casualty.

Shoot on the run
Once per turn the model may shoot as part of a normal movement action. A model using this trait may not fire (or having fired) a second time during it's current players turn. „Shoot on the run“ may not be used as a reaction (but the model may still shoot as a reaction if it used „shoot on the run“).

Specialist
This model may act as leader of it's unit and/or take over command of it's unit if the original unit leader is killed or the unit has no unit leader at all.

Stealthy (X), Stealthy (X/Y)
The enemies reaction range counts as X“ lower when reacting to this model. If there are two values the first one (X) is applied while the unit acts during the air phase and the later one (Y) is applied
if the unit acts as a ground unit.

Veteran
The Unit may reroll one shooting, close combat or artillery dice per action/reaction.

Elite
The Unit may reroll any shooting, close combat or artillery dice per action/reaction.

===

So the second thing that I want to show you, is my implementation of the Space Marine weapons in the SST rules.

I've also added some alternative differentiations in the types of weapons. These can be found at the end of the list. I have also added some updated profiles. These are based on the feedback that I received in the previous thread.

As you can see I have marked some weapons with a (?). In these entries I am still unsure whether I will implement this way or I will make changes for the stats. I would like to hear some opinions on this.

From the previous feedback, there was a question that could not been clarified so far. I have at some weapons profiles with the trait-combination of "Ready" and "Slow". Makes this combination sense or not?

Close Combat Weapons

Chain Fist (?)
Range: CC
Damage: 1x as user + W6 (?)
Traits: Piercing/3 - Slow - (?)

Chainsword
Range: CC
Damage: as user + 1
Traits: Piercing/1 - Parry

Power Fist (?)
Range: CC
Damage: 1x as user + W6 (?)
Traits: Piercing/3 - Slow - (?)

Power Weapon
Range: CC
Damage: as user
Traits: Piercing/3 - Parry

Lightning Claw
Range: CC
Damage: as user
Traits: Piercing/3 - Parry

Thunder Hammer (?)
Range: CC
Damage: 1x as user + W6 (?)
Traits: Piercing/3 - Slow - (?)

Pistols

Bolt Pistol
Range: 15"
Damage: D6+2
Traits: Piercing/2 - Multihit

Hand Flamers
Range: 8"
Damage: D6
Traits: Piercing/1 - LZ (Stream) - Flame

Plasma Pistol
Range: 15 "
Damage: D10
Traits: Piercing/3 - Retaliate

Light Weapons / Assault Weapons

Sniper Rifle
Range: 60"
Damage: D10+2
Traits: Priece/1 - Sniper - Accurate - Heavy - Slow

Bolt Gun
Range: 30"
Damage: 2x D6+2
Traits: Piercing/2 - [Auto] - Multihit

Flamer
Range: 8"
Damage: D6+1
Traits: Piercing/1 - LZ (Stream) - Flame

Meltagun
Range: 10"
Damage: D10+2
Traits: Killshot - LZ (Stream) - Multihit

Plasma Gun
Range: 30"
Damage: D10+2
Traits: Piercing/3 - LZ (1"/LoS) - Retaliate

Shotgun - Full Bullet
Range: 10"
Damage: D10
Traits: Piercing/3 - Slow

Shotgun - Shot Bullet
Range: 10"
Damage: D6+2
Traits: Piercing/1 - Spread - Slow

Storm Bolter
Range: 30"
Damage: 3x D6+2
Traits: Piercing/2 - [Auto] - Multihit

Heavy Weapons

Assault Cannon
Range: 30"
Damage: 4x D6+2
Traits: Piercing/1 - Auto

Twin-Linked Assault Cannon
Range: 30"
Damage: 8x D6+2
Traits: Piercing/1 - Auto

Autocannon
Range: 50"
Damage: 2x D10
Traits: Piercing/2

Twin-Linked Autocannon
Range: 50"
Damage: 4x D10
Traits: Piercing/2 - Auto

Heavy Bolter
Range: 40"
Damage: 3x D6+3
Traits: Piercing/2 - [Auto] - Multihit - Ready - Heavy - Slow

Heavy Bolter - REWORK
Range: 40"
Damage: 3x D6+3
Traits: Auto - Piercing/2 - Multihit - Heavy - Prone


Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter
Range: 40"
Damage: 6x D6+3
Traits: Piercing/2 - Auto - Multihit

Cyclone Missle Launcher
Range: Missiletype
Damage: 2x Missiletype
Traits: Ready - Heavy - Slow

Missile Launcher
Range: Missiletype
Damage: Missiletype
Traits: Ready - Heavy - Slow

Typhoon Missile Launcher
Range: Missiletype
Damage: 2x Missiletype
Traits: Slow

Flamestorm Cannon
Range: 8"
Damage: D6+3
Traits: Piercing/3 - LZ (Stream) - Flame - Slow

Heavy Flamer
Range: 8"
Damage: D6+2
Traits: Piercing/2 - LZ (Stream) - Flame - Ready - Heavy - Slow

Lascannon
Range: 50"
Damage: D10+3
Traits: Piercing/3 - Beam (4) - Ready

Twin-Linked Lascannon
Range: 50"
Damage: 2x D10+3
Traits: Piercing/3 - Beam (4) - Ready

Multi-Melta
Range: 20"
Damage: D10+4
Traits: Killshot - LZ (Stream) - Multihit - Ready - Heavy - Slow

Plasma Cannon
Range: 40"
Damage: D10+2
Traits: Piercing/3 - LZ (2"/LoS) - Multihit - Retaliate - Ready - Heavy - Slow

Support Weapons

Demolisher Cannon
Range: 30"
Damage: D10+4
Traits: Piercing/3 - LZ (3"/LoS) - Bunker Buster (D6) - Multihit - Ready - Heavy - Slow

Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher

Vengenance Missile
Range: 15 - 60"
Damage: D6+2
Traits: Ready - Heavy - Slow - Piercing/1 - LZ (3")

Castellan Missile (Mines)
Range: 15 - 60"
Damage: Special
Traits: Ready - Heavy - Slow - [LZ (3")]

Incendiary Castellan Missile
Range: 15 - 60"
Damage: D6+1
Traits: Ready - Heavy - Slow - Piercing/1 - LZ (3") - Flame

Missle Types

AA Missile
Range: 60"
Damage: D10+4
Traits: Piercing/2 - LZ (2") - AA only - Agile - Direct Fire

Krak Missile
Range: 60"
Damage: D10+3
Traits: Piercing/3 - LZ (1")

Frag Missile
Range: 60"
Damage: D6
Traits: Piercing/1 - LZ (2")

Melta Missile
Range: 60"
Damage: D10+2
Traits: Killshot - LZ (1") - Multihit - one-shot

Plasma Missile
Range: 60"
Damage: D6+2
Traits: Piercing/3 - LZ (2")

Grenade Types

Krak Grenade
Range: Thrown/10" / CC
Damage: D10+3
Traits: Piercing/3 - [LZ (1")]

Frag Grenade
Range: Thrown/10"
Damage: 2x D6
Traits: Piercing/1 - LZ (2")

Melta Bomb
Range: Placed/CC
Damage: D10+2
Traits: Killshot - Multihit - one-shot - remote (if placed)

Plasma Grenade
Range: Thrown/10"
Damage: D6+2
Traits: Piercing/3 - LZ (2")

Alternative Weapons Values

Dreadnought Assault Cannon
Range: 40"
Damage: 5x D6+3
Traits: Piercing/2 - Auto

Terminator Assault Cannon
Range: 30"
Damage: 4x D6+2
Traits: Piercing/1 - Auto

Destructor Autocannon
Range: 50"
Damage: 2x D10
Traits: Piercing/2

Twin-Linked Autocannon
Range: 50"
Damage: 4x D6+2
Traits: Piercing/1 - Auto

Devastator Lascannon
Range: 40"
Damage: D10+2
Traits: Piercing/3 - Beam (4) - Ready - Heavy - Slow

Annihilator Lascannon
Range: 50"
Damage: D10+3
Traits: Piercing/3 - Beam (4) - Ready

Twin-Linked Annihilator Lascannon
Range: 50"
Damage: 2x D10+3
Traits: Piercing/3 - Beam (4) - Ready

Twin-Linked Godhammer Lascannon
Range: 50"
Damage: 2x D10+4
Traits: Piercing/3 - Beam (4) - Ready

Hunter Killer Missile
Range: unlimited (?)
Damage: D10+5
Traits: Killshot - LZ (1") - one-shot

===

So the last point that I will show you is my approach for the rules of commanders, asset selection and my design for the PL-list. I hope the rules are ready to understand. If you find something, I must clarify, please write me.

Force Leader
Each Space Marine Force needed a Force Leader who coordinates the operation. Experienced Veteran Sergeants lead small operations with only a few numbers of squads. If this is an important operational target, then the chapter leadership will entrust a chaplain or a captain of company with the task. In times of greatest need and urgency, the Chapter Master will lead the operation themselves and will use all of his power and his chapter to destroy the enemies of the empire.

A model equipped with the "Force leader" trait can be selected as an operation leader. There is only one Force Leader in the army. The officer with the higher rank must be it. If multiple equal-models are in the army, the controlling player must decide before the game which model is the Force Leader. This cannot be changed during the game. The available forces depend on the rank of each model. The Force Leader can always get up to 4 basic asset selections. A higher rank officer will also receive additional selections from other assets.

Force Leader Ranking
1. Chapter Master
2. Captain
3. Chaplain
4. Veteran Sergeant

Asset Selection per Officer
Force Leader
0-4 - Basic Asset

Chaplain
0-1 - First Company Asset
0-1 - Command Asset

Techmarine
0-4 - Armory Asset

Captain
0-6 - Basic Asset
0-2 - First Company Asset
0-2 - Fleet Assets
0-2 - Command Asset

Master of the Recruits (plus Captian Selection)
0-2 - Basic Asset

Master of the Arsenal (plus Captian Selection)
0-2 - Armory Asset

Master of the Fleet (plus Captian Selection)
0-2 - Fleet Assets

Master of the Watch (plus Captian Selection)
0-2 - First Company Asset

Chapter Master
any Number/Type

Explanation
The above list indicates which choices an officer gets in the asset list. The Force Leader always gets up to 4 basic assets. According to his rank, he also has the above selections. For example, a Chaplain will receive up to one First Company Asset Selection and up to one Command Asset Selection. When the Chaplain is the Force Leader, he will receive up to 4 Basic Asset selections, up to one First Company Asset selection and up to one Command Asset Selection. Which model is the Force leader, determined by this list => Force Leader Ranking.

PL-List (PL 1 / PL 2 / PL 3)

HQ
1. Space Marine Chapter Master (none / none / 0-1)
- Space Marine Honour Guard
- Space Marine Chapter Champion
- Space Marine Chapter Standard Bearer
2. Space Marine Captian (none / 0-1 / 1+)
- Master of the Arsenal
- Master of the Recruits
- Master of the Fleet
- Master of the Watch
2.1 Space Marine Command Squad
- Space Marine Apothecary
- Space Marine Company Champion
- Space Marine Company Standard Bearer
3. Space Marine Chaplain (none / 0-1 / 1+)
4. Space Marine Veteran (1 / 1-5 / any Number)

Basic Asset
1. Space Marine Tactical Squad (any Number)
- Space Marine Rhino
- Space Marine Razorback
2. Space Marine Assault Squad (none / 0-1 / any Number)
- Space Marine Bike Squadron
- Space Marine Attack Bike Squadron
- Space Marine Land Speeder Squadron
3. Space Marine Devastator Squad (0-1 / 0-2 / any Number)
- Space Marine Rhino
- Space Marine Razorback
4. Space Marine Scouts (any Number)
- Space Marine Scout Bike Squadron
- Space Marine Land Speeder Storm

Command Asset
1. Space Marine Librarian (none / 0-1 / 0-3)
2. Space Marine Techmarine (none / 0-1 / any Number)
- Master of the Forge
- Servitors
3. Space Marine Dreadnought (none / 0-1 / 0-3)
- Space Marine Ironclad Dreadnought (needed a Techmarine to be selected)

First Company Asset
1. Space Marine Terminator Squad (none / 0-1 / any Number)
- Tactical Squad
- Assault Squad
2. Space Marine Veterans (none / 0-1 / any Number)
- Sternguard
- Vanguard
3. Space Marine Venerable Dreadnought (none / none / 0-1)

Armory Asset
1. Space Marine Thunderfire Cannon (none / 0-1 / 0-3)
2. Tarantula Sentry Gun (none / 0-1 / 0-3)
3. Rapier Las Sentry Gun (none / 0-1 / 0-3)
4. Space Marine Land Raider (none / none / 0-3)
- Crusader schema
- Redeemer schema
- .............................
5. Space Marine Predator (none / 0-1 / 0-3)
6. Space Marine Whirlwind (none / none / 0-3)
7. Space Marine Vindicator (none / none / 0-3)

Fleet Asset
1. Space Marine Drop-Pods (none / 0-1 / any Number)
2. Orbital bombardment (none / 0-1 / any Number)
3. Space Marine Thunderhawk (none / none / 0-1)
4. Space Marine Land Speeder Tempest (none / 0-1 / any Number

That's it for now. I am grateful for any suggestions or criticism.

Greetz
Arkon
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basaint
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Posts: 494
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Postby basaint » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:24 pm

So it looks as though you're basing the units off Bevo asset types, not SST. Should still be doable for SST tho, just ignore the types (Hq, Basic, etc).

You could also separate the Marine types like in SST:
MI, Lami, Mechs, etc

Ill look over this again later and nitpick at it again :)
wolfprophet
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Posts: 42
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Postby wolfprophet » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:29 pm

He did say he's basing it off Galatea's Post Klendathu mod, which is a mixture of the best things from Evo and the best from SST. That would account for the Asset types.

The Marines also wouldn't have list types. :P The Imperium of Man in which they are apart of....certainly. As there are several sub-branches. And by several, I mean the tree that makes up the Imperium's military structure has so many branches, it would turn a Mighty Oak into a Weeping willow.

Now, bad tree humour aside, he does have some starting stats for Imperial Guardsmen stashed away some place. They're basically LAMI.
I'm sure eventually we can incorporate some of the others, like the Sisters of Battle and some specialist organizations like the Ordos Hereticus and Ordos Xenos.
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basaint
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Postby basaint » Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:31 pm

Ahh I get it now. I don't have that Galatea pack
Arkon4000
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Posts: 22
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A few thoughts for Imperial Guard

Postby Arkon4000 » Fri Jun 10, 2011 2:45 pm

Hi Communtiy,

At first, thanks for your comments, today I would like to present you my thoughts about Imperial Guard. Starting point for the values of IG were a concerns of Wolfprophet.

He wanted to make a bigger test match with the mod and he wanted to use the Imperial Guard. So he had asked me if I've already made a few thoughts on the Imperial Guard stats. The main question was about the essential elements of the Imperial Guard, so the following units:
- Platoon Commander
- Sergeant
- Guardsmen
- Kasrkin Sergeant
- Kasrkin

And also the values for the following weapons were needed:
- Sniper rifle
- Lasguns
- Laspistols
- Grenade launchers
- Kasrkin's Hot-shot laspistol
- Kasrkin's Hot-shot lasgun

My basic idea was to take over the values of the LAMI-Troopers form SST. The spirit of the Imperial Guard is the same as the LAMI. It is a human mass army. The values are based essentially on the LAMI-Platoon list from the pK-Mod. So I created the following values for the Imperial Guard:

Unit Stats

Platoon Leader
Value: 70p
Size: 1
Move: 4"
CC: 2xD6+1
Target: 3+
Save: 5+/4+
Kill: 5+
Traits: Independent

Sergeant
Value: 20p
Size: 1
Move: 4"
CC: 2xD6-1
Target: 3+
Save: 5+/-
Kill: 5+
Traits: No

Corperal (*)
Value: 15p
Size: 1
Move: 4"
CC: D6-1
Target: 3+
Save: 5+/-
Kill: 5+
Traits: No

Guardsmen
Value: 10p
Size: 1
Move: 4"
CC: D6-1
Target: 3+
Save: 5+/-
Kill: 5+
Traits: No

Kasrkin Sergeant
Value: 40p
Size: 1
Move: 4"
CC: 2xD6
Target: 4+
Save: 4+/-
Kill: 6+
Traits: Veteran (**)

Kasrkin Corperal (*)
Value: 30p
Size: 1
Move: 4"
CC: D6
Target: 4+
Save: 4+/-
Kill: 6+
Traits: Veteran (**)

Kasrkin
Value: 20p
Size: 1
Move: 4"
CC: D6
Target: 4+
Save: 4+/-
Kill: 6+
Traits: Veteran (**)

Weapon Stats

Sniper rifle
Range: 60“
Damage: D10
Traits: Accurate - heavy - Piercing/1 - sniper

Lasguns
Range: 25"
Damage: 2xD6
Traits: Auto

Laspistols
Range: 15"
Damage: D6
Traits: No

Grenade launchers
Frag:
Range: 25"
Damage: 2xD6
Traits: LZ(2") - Piercing/1 - slow

Krak:
Range: 25"
Damage: D10+1
Traits: LZ(1") - Piercing/2 - slow

Hot-shot laspistol (***)
Range: 20"
Damage: 2xD6
Traits: Auto - Piercing/2

Hot-shot lasgun (***)
Range: 10"
Damage: D6
Traits: Piercing/2

IG-Boltpistol
Range: 15"
Damage: D6+1
Traits: Piercing/1 - Multihit

IG-Boltgun
Range: 30"
Damage: 2xD6+1
Traits: Piercing/1 - Multihit

IG-Heavy Bolter
Range: 40"
Damage: 3xD6+2
Traits: Auto - Piercing/1 - Multihit

Frag Grenade
Range: Thrown/10"
Damage: 2xD6
Traits: LZ(2") - Piercing/1 - slow

Krak Grenade
Range: Thrown/10"//CC
Damage: D10+1
Traits: LZ(1") - Piercing/2 - slow

(*) The corperal is an optional idea for split the squads in fireteams.
(**) These traits could fit very well to the kasrkin. It is an optional idea.
(***) Thoughts about hot-shot: May be change the pierce/2 to pierce/1 and give a +1 to the damage - I don't know what work better.

Based on the feedback I have already received, I have reworked the profile of the IG heavy Bolter. The new profile is as follows:

IG-Heavy Bolter
Range: 40"
Damage: 3x D6+2
Traits: Auto - Piercing/1 - Multihit - Heavy - Crew (2) - Prone

The Crew-Trait indicates how many models for the operation of the weapon are needed. These models must be in contact with the weapon or the weapon carrier. The models may not use their own weapons when the crew weapon make a shoot action. The weapon can act or react then as normal. If not enough models are in contact, then the weapon is considered as "slow".

I also have received some feedback on the profiles of the Imperial Guard. Galatea evaluate the armor saves as too high. In his view, a armor save of 4+ is for the SST conditions, the level of power-assisted full armor suits. This level is not reached from the body armor of the Kasrkin.

I've been thinking about it and have come to the view that he is right. I think I have kept my first draft too close to the original 40k without further think about the details and if these are appropriate values ​​in the SST-rules environment.

So my suggestion would be now to set the save value for all guardsmen on 6+ and to set only for the kasrkin the save on 5+. However, for this purpose would be more feedback helpful.

This is it for today. I happy about every comment and every kind of criticism.

Greetz
Arkon
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Postby locarno24 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:48 am

Comments:

a) Hotshot Lasgun and Laspistol are reversed.
b) Higher Piercing value makes more sense than a damage boost. Lasers are better at punching through metal and ceramic than at doing organic damage to the person underneath. It also keeps them distinct from bolt weapons.
c) I'd keep 4+ armour.

In game terms the difference between a 5+ and 6+ save is minimal, especially since you've given angelus-calibre bolt weapons piercing/2.

In background terms the SST M1A2 power suit is powered armour but battlefield Evolution also has 4+ infantry armour - contemporary Spetznaz heavy armour and US Army Future Force Warrior armour. In both cases think SWAT/Counterterrorist breaching suits. With sufficiently advanced materials for the armour plate I don't see 4+ being that unfair. M1A2 suits are as much powered for jumps, hostile environment protection and C4I gear as weight of armour.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Comments for the IG-Values

Postby Arkon4000 » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:34 pm

locarno24 wrote:Comments:

a) Hotshot Lasgun and Laspistol are reversed.
That's correct. That was my mistake. Now it should be correct. Thanks for the notice.
locarno24 wrote: b) Higher Piercing value makes more sense than a damage boost. Lasers are better at punching through metal and ceramic than at doing organic damage to the person underneath. It also keeps them distinct from bolt weapons.
Exactly. I have come to the same conclusion. I think it makes more sense than a power boost. I think the key for this weapon is even the penetration agains armor as the lethal nature of a las shot itself.
locarno24 wrote:
c) I'd keep 4+ armour.

In game terms the difference between a 5+ and 6+ save is minimal, especially since you've given angelus-calibre bolt weapons piercing/2.

In background terms the SST M1A2 power suit is powered armour but battlefield Evolution also has 4+ infantry armour - contemporary Spetznaz heavy armour and US Army Future Force Warrior armour. In both cases think SWAT/Counterterrorist breaching suits. With sufficiently advanced materials for the armour plate I don't see 4+ being that unfair. M1A2 suits are as much powered for jumps, hostile environment protection and C4I gear as weight of armour.
You could be right. But I think that we should have to test out this point in more test games.

In my view you can not forgotten the rules differences between SST and BF Evo. These differences justify a different balance for the profile values in the different rulesets.

I think it is a big difference if you get a bonus of +1 for your kill value (BF EVO) or only a +1 on your armor save for light cover (SST). The probability that I can use my armor save is increasing, even if I have a higher kill level than if I just get a bonus for my dice roll.

I develop this mod with more focus on the SST system than on the BF Evo system. And since I have set myself a little compatibility to SST and the pK mod as a target, the values ​​should already be comparable to the SST units.

But your thoughts are helpful in any case. I will test the different values ​​and dependent of the results I will adjust the values ​​or the points costs accordingly.

Thank you for your help.

Greetz
Arkon
Last edited by Arkon4000 on Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Silvereye » Sat Jun 18, 2011 5:23 pm

Sorry, but this might be a bit of a long rambling post... My thoughts on the Space Marines so far.

SPACE MARINES

Move - reduce all infantry by -1"?

First Company Assets

All Terminators - Drop Parry, bring it back into profile through weapons.
I'm still not sure about Terminators being Hit 7 - it does mean that they are immune to a Guardsman's Lasgun, and possibly an awful lot of other weapons. Change tp Hit: 6+; Save:2+/5+; Kill: 12+; Hits/3 means they are still increadbly difficult to kill. But it's achievable by lots of basic weapons.

Command Assets
Add Apothecary
Add Techmarine
Librarian split into Codicer - Psyker/1, Veteran and Epistolary - Psyker/2, Elite.
Dreadnaught - reduce CC to 2xD10 (boost with Dreadnaught CC weapons)

Armoury Assets
Vindicator is a siege tank, Increase save to 2+?

Fleet Assets
Add Storm Raven

Close Combat Weapons
Add Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapon - CC: 3D10+3; Traits: Piercing/4

Not sure about the Slow on the Chain Fist, Power Fist, or Thunderhammer. Maybe have a Ready action that allows the weilder to do something brutal and fun with them though.

Chain Fist - Increase piercing, Ready - Multi-hit (Designed to quicly cut a terminator sized hole in things)
Powerfist - Increase piercing
Single Lightning Claw - Roll into generic Power Weapon
Pair of Lightning Claws, +1 Dice in CC, Parry
Thunder Hammer - Increase piercing, Ready - Killshot
Storm Shield - +1 to saves from attacks in front 180º (counts as in light cover)?, Parry

Pistols
Hand Flamer - reduce range to 5"

Light/Assault Weapons
Bolt guns/pistols, still not convinced they should be Piercing/2, it is that shift to AP 5 in recent editions of the rules...

Boltgun - reduce range to 25"?, remove [Auto], leave it for Storm Bolters?
Sniper Rifle - Replace Heavy and Slow with Ready, Increase Piercing?
Flamer - increase range to 10"
Meltagun - Is there any reason to have Killshot and Multihit?
Shotgun Bullet - Increase Range to 20", reduce piercing to 2, remove Slow
Shotgun Shot - Increase Range to 15", remove Piercing and Slow and replace spread with a LZ
Storm Bolter - reduce range to 25"?

Heavy Weapons
Do we need to add rules that allows them to only fire once per round, or just that the space marines need to be sationary to fire them, or both?

Remove the Twin-Linked entries. Twin-linked should just get a standard rules description. Maybe +50% dice, and additional +1?

Add
Hurricane Bolters - Range 25"; Damage (6x Boltguns is probably very excessive) 6xD6+2; Traits Auto; Piercing/2; Multihit

Assault cannon - Piercing/2
Autocannon - increase piercing to 3
Heavy Bolter - Replace Ready, Heavy and Slow with Prone
Cyclone - Count as Twin-linked missile launcher?
Flamestorm Cannon - Increase range to 15"
Heavy Flamer - Increase range to 10"
Multi-melta - Is there any reason to have Killshot and Multihit?

Support Weapons
Demolisher Cannon - Reduce range to 25"
Drop Ready and Heavy from the Whirlwind
Vengence Missile - Add AA?

Missile Types
Krak Missile - Add Multihit
Drop Melta - Save the really killy missile effect for Hunter killer missiles
Drop Plasma - Why use Frag when Plasma is available? Leave it for the Xenos

Grenade Types
Add Ready action to all grenades - it means they are then much less likely to be used instead of a pistol shot etc.
Meltabomb - Is there any reason to have Killshot and Multihit?, Remove one shot
Drop Plasma - Why use Frag when Plasma is available? Leave it for the Xenos

Alternative Weapons

Just stick with the standard weapon entries.
Move the Hunter-killer missile into Support Weapons and keep the unlimited range. Add AA?

Forces:
Librarians used to also be communications officers. Does the Codex Astartes allow them to also command forces in the field?

Command Assets
Add Apothecary (none / 0-3 / any number)

Basic Assests
Space Marine Assault Squad (none / 0-1 / any Number) - The Bike and Speeder assets strike me as things that would be in the low priority force - Pickets/Scouts/Patrols etc. Change to (0-1 / 0-3 / any Number), I believe they are also drawn from the Battle and Tactical Companies?

First Company Asset
Space Marine Terminator Squad (none / 0-1 / any Number)
- Tactical Squad (add Land Raider as Transport option?)

Armoury Assets
Make more slots available with Techmarines - they wouldn't leave the fun toys behind.
Tarantuala's for defensive missions only (0-1 / 0-3 / any Number)?
Drop the Rapier, it's more suited to Imperial Guard equipment.

Fleet Assets
Make Drop Pods more available for being an attacker.
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First Reaction on Comments for the SM-Values

Postby Arkon4000 » Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:47 am

@Silvereye

Thank you for your massive feedback. But this is so much new material that I probably need a few days to analyze all of your suggestions in detail. But I will give you a detail feedback in any case.

Thank you again for your help. These comments are exactly that what I need for this project to bring it in the right direction.

Greetz
Arkon
Last edited by Arkon4000 on Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kenrick Dargoth » Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:38 am

Well nice idea overall but SM are eating IG with this lists. The poor schmucks have no chances. I understand that SM are uber soldiers but it supposed to be a game. You need some balance. So don't try to show fluff within the stats or you'll fail miserably in the balance section. If you want both (balance and fluff) don't make SM and IG but make the Empire army list (IG mostly + small detachement of SM/][/whatever) and so on with other armies.
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Galatea's Comment for the SM-Values

Postby Arkon4000 » Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:13 am

Thank you for your comments. I thought that it would arise some doubts about the values. We have this question in another forum and Galatea's comment sums it up very well, so I add this:
In a direct comparison 3 Space Marines are equal to 3 Grizzly Exos (2x Twin sixgun / 1x Twin Fire Storm) - they lose something because they have no heavy weapons.

The Exos are more mobile (Jump / 15) and have a much higher rate of fire at long range (30 inch - 4x 3xD6+1 - Piercing / 1 and 1 x 48 inch - 4xD10 - Multihit - Piercing / 2).

The Marines resist a bit more damage but that's relative - Exos have K8 - Marines have K10 - other side the Grizzlies have Save 2+ and Marines only have Save 3+ and the Grizzlies have the higher weapon damage.

Bolter Marines especially have problems with cheap, highly mobile kamikaze bugs such as Fire Fries. Against this type of enemy each Bolter shot is a massive overkill and a waste of firepower.

A profile with Target 5+, Save 3+, Kill 10+, Hits / 2 is not nearly as hard as it looks. Even a normal krak missile (60 inch - D10+3 - Piercing/2) need only a roll of 7 (40% chance) to kill a Space Marine or roll of 9 (20% Chance) to score the kill value of a Terminator.

For example: A 10-man squad of LAMI-Trooper costs just 110 points and firing at 20 inch 20xW6 for assault rifle damage - so that they reach about 2 LP-losses (2 2 / 9) at the Marines.With 2 Rocket launcher, which would raise the cost of the squad at 180 points, would that be two dead Marines.
I hope now it is a bit understandable, why I have set the values so high. I want to give the Space Marines Army an elite character. Consequently, the point costs are so high. The number of Space Marines on the battlefield is never very high and every lost is very painful for the player.

I hope for more comments and criticisms.

Greetz
Arkon
Last edited by Arkon4000 on Mon Jul 11, 2011 4:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby locarno24 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:55 pm

Meltagun - Is there any reason to have Killshot and Multihit?
Yes. A hit now does 4 damage (i.e. enough to total a battle tank).
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Postby wolfprophet » Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:42 am

Silvereye wrote: Fleet Assets
Add Storm Raven
Ewww. Few problems. The Storm Raven is ugly. Only two marine chapters use them (For some odd reason.) and it feels like a sad attempt by GW to make a Space Marine version of the Valkyrie. I'd be happy if none of use ever make stats for it.
Kenrick Dargoth wrote:Well nice idea overall but SM are eating IG with this lists. The poor schmucks have no chances. I understand that SM are uber soldiers but it supposed to be a game. You need some balance. So don't try to show fluff within the stats or you'll fail miserably in the balance section. If you want both (balance and fluff) don't make SM and IG but make the Empire army list (IG mostly + small detachement of SM/][/whatever) and so on with other armies.
You're not familiar with the Evo/SST rules are you? Balance? What's that?
And keeping the two separate, but allowing them to work together is key since Imperial forces have a nasty habit of turning on each other if even a wrong word is spoken or an injustice committed. And of course the nasty habit of Imperial forces far from the influence of Terra to become... corruptible. However! He should most definitely include IG Auxiliaries for the Space Marines, as many chapters keep auxiliaries on their fortress worlds, especially the Ultramarines. And sometimes, weapons shouldn't be able to hurt a certain type of armour, even if it may seem unbalancing. Terminator armour is thick as tank armour. Lasguns should never penetrate it. Ever. That's why you need heavier weapons to help deal with them effectively.
Gameplay-wise as well, if you look at the costs.... An IG squad is about 110 points. A marine is 100 points. Even if they just have Lasguns, 50 Guardsmen will overrun 5 marines and at best, the marines will kill half before they die as long as the IG player doesn't blindly run out in the open. Cover is important. I have 30 IG at the moment, so I could test this theory with a 3 marines and 30 IG. Though, I wonder how 30 IG against one Terminator would turn out..... Likely very messy, but the Termie would probably die given enough grenades.


Marines are also, despite those hard stats, far from impervious. My friends and I ran a big game last december with 34 marines, 5 Terminator armoured marines and a Dreadnought all backed up with an another 21 IG. The result was 9 marines dead, 18 wounded(reduced to one hit) 3 Termies wounded (1 was 2/3 hits, 2 were 1/3 hits left.) and 9 IG dead. All in all, I think the IG actually did pretty well and they did a fair amount of fighting without much marine support on their end of the table. They even skewered some bugs on those shiny lasgun bayonets. :D The bugs however, suffered severely and had we been able to continue(Even another hour or two), those wounded marines would have started dropping like flies when we finally called in the hoppers and other nasty, hardier reserves. Perhaps the most amusing moment of the game though was when I brought in a tanker bug and one of the Imperial players panicked, since it was heading for the IG. It managed to burn up two IG, then three marines attacked it from behind and killed it in Close Combat. It's Retaliate did not hurt them in return. That was a very disappointing attack.

Oh wait. No. That's second.
Most amusing was when I snuck around with control bugs and took over a Guardsman and a marine while they were around another marine and guardsman. In the process, they forgot to move them so their attack next turn killed both of the infected, plus the extra IG and wounded the marine. Roflmao.
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Postby basaint » Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:53 pm

Hyperbunny wants stats for Orks...you gona put them up?
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Postby wolfprophet » Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:23 am

basaint wrote:Hyperbunny wants stats for Orks...you gona put them up?
Tell Hyperbunny to come here and help then. Lol. I'll post Tau stats in a few days whether I get to test them or not.
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Comments on the Review of Silvereye for the Space Marines

Postby Arkon4000 » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:20 am

Silvereye wrote:Sorry, but this might be a bit of a long rambling post... My thoughts on the Space Marines so far.
No Problem. Your thoughts are really helpful for me and give me a lot of new ideas. But I would like to comment on some things and I would be interested for your reasoning at some points. I split my answer because it's so much material that I need time to work through.
Silvereye wrote:SPACE MARINES

Move - reduce all infantry by -1"?
Can you tell me the reason why I should reduce the movement value?
Silvereye wrote:First Company Assets
All Terminators - Drop Parry, bring it back into profile through weapons.
I'm still not sure about Terminators being Hit 7 - it does mean that they are immune to a Guardsman's Lasgun, and possibly an awful lot of other weapons. Change tp Hit: 6+; Save:2+/5+; Kill: 12+; Hits/3 means they are still increadbly difficult to kill. But it's achievable by lots of basic weapons.
I have given them the Parry trait, because all the other elite troops (i.e. vanguard, sternguard, etc.) have this trait also. But you could be right with your suggestion. A fighter inside a Terminator armor is not to be able to parry an attack without a suitable weapon for it.

Ok it's true that a hit of 7+ is really hard. But I see no problem in that case. A terminator will probably cost around 200 points or more. For these points other army get enough troops or better weapons that give them a good chance to make a hit or kill at the Terminator. And the terminator armor is the best full-body armor suit that the Empire has to offer. And this point should be reflected in the values.
Silvereye wrote:Command Assets
Add Apothecary
Add Techmarine
Librarian split into Codicer - Psyker/1, Veteran and Epistolary - Psyker/2, Elite.
Dreadnaught - reduce CC to 2xD10 (boost with Dreadnaught CC weapons)
I know that the Apothecary and the Techmarine are missing in my list. That's my mistake. I will create some profiles for them. But what kind of trait we can give them to distinguish them from other Marines. They have a special combat function, but I have no real idea how this can represent in the game.

I had the same idea for the Librarian like you. I think that is a good way to get a psyker for lower cost of points.

I like your Dreadnaught sugguestion.
Silvereye wrote:Armoury Assets
Vindicator is a siege tank, Increase save to 2+?
A give them the 3+-save because in the original 40k-Rules the vindicator and the predator have the same armor values. I just think about it if I take the idea from the Evo rules with different values ​​for the different sides of a tank. But I'm not sure right now if that is playable
Silvereye wrote:Fleet Assets
Add Storm Raven
Ok, I created this profile yet. When I wrote the other profiles the Storm Raven did not exist. I will make my thoughts on this point and then I post my ideas.
Silvereye wrote:Close Combat Weapons
Add Dreadnaught Close Combat Weapon - CC: 3D10+3; Traits: Piercing/4
Nice idea, but I'm not sure if it make sense to set the piercing so high. The weapon has a high attack roll for CC and the chance is great that you reach very often the kill value of an enemy unit. In these cases the piercing is useless. A Piercing of 3 makes it for the adopted unit difficult enough to make a successful armor save.
Silvereye wrote:Not sure about the Slow on the Chain Fist, Power Fist, or Thunderhammer. Maybe have a Ready action that allows the weilder to do something brutal and fun with them though.
I've taken the slow trait, because I wanted to represent the lower initiative from the original 40k rules. But the Ready trait could solve this problem even better. I think it's fair that a model with one of these weapons, can also use them against the enemy if it has time to prepare for the attack and gets the opportunity to act or react... I took a moment to think about it and I like the idea and it makes sense if you imagine it in a real fight.
Silvereye wrote:Chain Fist - Increase piercing, Ready - Multi-hit (Designed to quicly cut a terminator sized hole in things)
Multihit is nice. That is a suitable trait for the weapon. But what shall we do with the damage value? Should we set a fixed value like the Dreadnaught CCW or do we leave it at the lucky roll of the additional D6? The increase of the piercing depends on the damage value...
Silvereye wrote:Powerfist - Increase piercing
Same question like above. Fix value or variable value?
Silvereye wrote:Single Lightning Claw - Roll into generic Power Weapon
Pair of Lightning Claws, +1 Dice in CC, Parry
Which damage value should we set for this weapon? The extra die for the 2nd Claw sounds good to me and the parry trait fits very well...
Silvereye wrote:Thunder Hammer - Increase piercing, Ready - Killshot
Ready and Killshot fit well, but with the Killshot trait we need no more piercing (score hit = score kill => no armor save). Which damage value should we set for this weapon?
Silvereye wrote:Storm Shield - +1 to saves from attacks in front 180º (counts as in light cover)?, Parry
I've talked about this equipment with Galatea. He had a similar equipment for the skinnies, which works in the same way as you describe it. This I wanted to take over for the storm shield. The Parry Trait make also sense and fits very well.
Silvereye wrote:Pistols
Hand Flamer - reduce range to 5"
Why such a short range?
Silvereye wrote:Light/Assault Weapons
Bolt guns/pistols, still not convinced they should be Piercing/2, it is that shift to AP 5 in recent editions of the rules...
Please remember that we create a mod and don't make a 1:1 transfer. This does not work, for that the differences are too great between the both rulesets. I take the original rules as a source of inspiration but the fluff serves also as a source.

Another thing is that the armor save modifier of -1 from the second Edition is based on a different ruleset. Especially the cover rules are different than in the SST. In the SST-rules cover give a bonus to the armor save and no modifier to the roll to hit.

Hence the piercing represents not only the armor penetration of a weapon but also the ability of a cover penetration. And if you want to base the piercing on the AP 5 from the current edition, then please remember what this value means. The weapon ignore all armor saves of 5+ and 6+. If you want transfer this 1:1 to the SST rules, then you must give the weapon a piercing of 2. (save 5 + piercing 2 = 7 => not possible on D6 - the same counts for the 6+ save)
Silvereye wrote:Boltgun - reduce range to 25"?, remove [Auto], leave it for Storm Bolters?
Why should I redcue the range? I see no reason for that... Ok in the original rules the boltgun has a maximum range of 24" but I have discussed this issue with another game designer (he create a new 40k ruleset) and he has come for his system to the same view as me. The range is simply too short for this weapon. Hence we have taken both 30 inches as range for the boltgun.

The [Auto]-trait is a special trait that is supposed to represent the different combat tactics of the Space Marines on the battlefield. When the Marines split their squads and everyone is fighting alone, they use aimed shots. This is represented by using of the 3"-LZ around the target unit.

If they work together as a squad or fire team, the 3"-zone make no sense, because too many potential hits would find no more targets. Hence a unit of Space Marines would create the normal Auto-zone of 6 " for their boltguns.
Silvereye wrote:Sniper Rifle - Replace Heavy and Slow with Ready, Increase Piercing?
Ok I think the "slow" trait not fit for this weapon. The weapon should be able to react. The "Heavy" trait should avoid that a model shoot with this weapon if it use their special ability "Shoot on the run". So I think we keep this trait. I'm not sure about the "Ready" Trait. I think we should try both in a test game.

On increasing the penetration I have to think because the weapon already has a very high damage roll. In addition, the weapon receives a bonus depending on the size of the target model. Hence the probability is very high that the gun often throws a kill.
Silvereye wrote:Flamer - increase range to 10"
Ok no problem with that. I set the range on the base of the flame template from the original 40k-Rules.
Silvereye wrote:Meltagun - Is there any reason to have Killshot and Multihit?
locarno24 wrote:Yes. A hit now does 4 damage (i.e. enough to total a battle tank).
That is correct. All melta weapons are specialized for anti-tank combat. But you'll just have to come close to the tank to blow him away.
Silvereye wrote:Shotgun Bullet - Increase Range to 20", reduce piercing to 2, remove Slow
Shotgun Shot - Increase Range to 15", remove Piercing and Slow and replace spread with a LZ
Do you really think it makes sense to increase the range? A shotgun is still a weapon for close combat or for very short range. The Slow trait also makes not illogical impression on me. Can you please explain to me why you think these changes make sense?
Silvereye wrote:Storm Bolter - reduce range to 25"?
See my comment for the Boltgun.
Silvereye wrote:Alternative Weapons
Just stick with the standard weapon entries.
Why would I do that? Is it too crazy, to differentiate the weapons more? Why should a terminator use the same assault cannon, like a Dreadnought? Why should not there be multiple power levels for the lascannon? I would like to take opportunity that offer this mod to revised some mistakes and nonsense of GW.
Silvereye wrote:Move the Hunter-killer missile into Support Weapons and keep the unlimited range. Add AA?
The AA-trait makes perfect sense for this missile, and would also represent a good supplement to the onboard system.

AA Missile
Range: 60"
Damage: D10+4
Traits: Piercing/2 - LZ (2") - AA only - Agile - Direct Fire

Hunter Killer Missile
Range: unlimited (?)
Damage: D10+5
Traits: Killshot - LZ (1") - one-shot

I think about it. What do you think about the idea that we put this two weapons together in one weapon?

Hunter Killer Missile - Example
Range: unlimited
Damage: D10+5
Traits: Killshot - LZ (2") - one-shot - AA - Agile - Direct Fire - Free

Agile - Taking from the pk-Mod
The weapon/unit ignores the dodge saves of air units. Air unit possessing this trait ignore the dodge saves of other air units when attacking them in close combat. Air units with the agile trait may block the flight path of other air units which results in intended collisions.

If an acting air unit moves into point blank range of an opposing air unit which possesses the agile trait you may work out close combat damage instantly, if the player of the agile model wishes. After attacks and damage are resolved the acting air unit must continue it's movement as normal (which may in case of Chirper swarms result in further collisions), if it is not destroyed during the collision.

If the air unit is destroyed during a collision it will crash down immediately using the normal air rules. The crash distance depends on the speed of the acting air unit, not on the distance it moved before it crashed into the blocking model.

If the blocking air unit is destroyed it will crash down referring to the flight speed it moved this turn or – in case it has not yet moved this turn – to the flight speed it moved the last run. If you don't remember at which speed the unit flew last turn you may also refer to it's lowest possible flight speed.

Direct Fire - Taking from the pk-Mod
Only LZ (X“) weapons with this trait may use direct fire mode (=create a normal firezone and not a template). Note that LZ (Stream) weapons will never gain this trait.

Free - Taking from the pk-Mod
This weapon may always be fired in addition to any other weapon the model is able to use.
Silvereye wrote:Heavy Weapons
Do we need to add rules that allows them to only fire once per round, or just that the space marines need to be stationary to fire them, or both?
As I have already written above, the "Heavy" trait should avoid that a model shoot with this weapon if it use their special ability "Shoot on the run". The Question now which trait we keep in the profiles. I think the Heavy Trait is ok. But about the "Ready" and the "Slow" Trait, we should discuss.

1. Should a heavy weapon to be able to react or not? (slow)
2. When a heavy weapon is able to react, should this reaction require a "Ready" Action or not? (Ready)
Silvereye wrote:Remove the Twin-Linked entries. Twin-linked should just get a standard rules description. Maybe +50% dice, and additional +1?
About these weapons, I thought long and hard. I have discussed this problem with Galatea, and we have solved the problem on the same principle as the twin fifty from SST. This weapon also has the double damage profile of a single caliber .50 BMG.

I see no problem on this weapons with this stats. The weapons lost their rerolls for the roll to hit from the original 40k-rules but get the double damage chance(!!). All weapons of all other armies that work this way, I would treat in the same way. That is not specific for the Space Marines.
Silvereye wrote:Add
Hurricane Bolters - Range 25"; Damage (6x Boltguns is probably very excessive) 6xD6+2; Traits Auto; Piercing/2; Multihit
Your proposal for the Hurricane Bolter System sounds good. You're right, that a damage profile would be pretty hard with 12 dices per system. However, we are talking about an assault vehicle which is intended to strike breaches. So the Hurricane Bolter System should be able to cause corresponding damage. I have to think about it...
Silvereye wrote:Assault cannon - Piercing/2
Dreadnought Assault Cannon
Range: 40"
Damage: 5x D6+3
Traits: Piercing/2 - Auto

Terminator Assault Cannon
Range: 30"
Damage: 4x D6+2
Traits: Piercing/1 - Auto

I made this profile as a proposal for the assault cannon to make the weapon more special. From my perspective, it makes no sense that Terminators and Dreadnoughts use the same weapon.

My reasoning was assumed that the terminator weapon is something that is comparable to today's minigun or mircogun.

The basic idea for the Dreadnought weapon was that is comparable to a weapon like the GAU-8 Avenger. A great walker should be able to carry a larger weapon than a servo-supported armour.

My profiles are based on the Sixgun from SST and on the GAU from Modern Combat. The only additional traits that would make sense for me yet, would be "Prone" and "Multihit". Prone only for the Terminator Weapon and Multihit for both weapons.
Silvereye wrote:Autocannon - increase piercing to 3
Destructor Autocannon
Range: 50"
Damage: 2x D10
Traits: Piercing/2

Twin-Linked Autocannon
Range: 50"
Damage: 4x D6+2
Traits: Piercing/1 - Auto

Let me explain why I would like to split this weapon. Based on the strength of autocannon from 40k I've written the first profile. This profile has been criticized as being too strong, because the Predator not only has access to this weapon. But a reduction of the weapon profile would made a Predator with this weapon nearly useless.

So I've considered how to divide the weapon useful. The main gun of a tank will certainly have a larger caliber than 30 or 40mm, so it was the only logical way, in my view, to use the first profile for the main gun. The twin-linked Autocannon is the only weapon of this type that is used in addition of the Space Marines. The Dreadnought can use it for example.

Here is the problem that this weapon is in direct competition with the assault cannon. Because the profile looks a little worse in comparison to the assault cannon, I had the following idea to make the weapon still attractive. We should give this weapon the "AA" Trait, because anti-aircraft guns are in short supply at the Space Marines anyway. And the Dreadnought can use two weapons of this type, one in each arm. With the AA-Trait for the weapon he become a good platform for anti aircraft fire. (Like the riflemen from Battletech ;) )
Silvereye wrote:Heavy Bolter - Replace Ready, Heavy and Slow with Prone
Heavy Bolter - REWORK
Range: 40"
Damage: 3x D6+3
Traits: Auto - Piercing/2 - Multihit - Heavy - Prone


Have you not seen the revised profile?
Silvereye wrote:Cyclone - Count as Twin-linked missile launcher?
Yes, in the original 40k-rules the cyclone count as a "heavy 2"-Weapon.
Silvereye wrote:Flamestorm Cannon - Increase range to 15"
Ok no problem with that. I set the range on the base of the flame template from the original 40k-Rules. (See flamer)
Silvereye wrote:Heavy Flamer - Increase range to 10"
Ok no problem with that. I set the range on the base of the flame template from the original 40k-Rules. (See flamer)
Silvereye wrote:Multi-melta - Is there any reason to have Killshot and Multihit?
See my comment for the melta.
Silvereye wrote:Support Weapons
Demolisher Cannon - Reduce range to 25"
Why do you think that we have to reduce the range for the weapon? I know that the weapon is a siege weapon for a siege tank but if the range is to short the weapon is not really effective.
Silvereye wrote:Drop Ready and Heavy from the Whirlwind
You're right, the "Ready" and "Heavy"-Trait are not necessary for the weapon. The Slow trait is enough.
Silvereye wrote:Vengence Missile - Add AA?
I've thought about it, but some sources in the background say that the whirlwind is not effective as an anti-aircraft tank. There are a special version of the Whirlwind, the Hyperios and for Epic there are the Hunter anti-aircraft tank with a special missiles mount.

But if we just give the "AA" trait without any other traits, then he can fight against airborne targets, but is less effective than a special tank which shoots with SAMs. And that I think is ok.
Silvereye wrote:Missile Types
Krak Missile - Add Multihit
I think that is a good idea. This type of missile should be able to blow things in thousand pieces.
Silvereye wrote:Drop Melta - Save the really killy missile effect for Hunter killer missiles
I think you are right. I had taken this idea from the 2nd Edition.
Silvereye wrote:Drop Plasma - Why use Frag when Plasma is available? Leave it for the Xenos
I think you are right. I had taken this idea from the 2nd Edition.
Silvereye wrote:Grenade Types
Add Ready action to all grenades - it means they are then much less likely to be used instead of a pistol shot etc.
You are right. Ready is really necessary for the grenades. At the moment they are really nobrainers.
Silvereye wrote:Meltabomb - Is there any reason to have Killshot and Multihit?, Remove one shot
See my comment for the melta. I have set this trait, because I think the weapon is very powerful and even more if they have unlimited supply. But what is the reason that you think we have to remove the trait?
Silvereye wrote:Drop Plasma - Why use Frag when Plasma is available? Leave it for the Xenos
I think you are right. I had taken this idea from the 2nd Edition.
Silvereye wrote:Forces:
Librarians used to also be communications officers. Does the Codex Astartes allow them to also command forces in the field?
You're right with your assumption. They are indeed officers. Their command authority ranks below the Chaplain and the Captain.

But how can we integrate them meaningfully into the command structure? If they have command authority, they should actually be moved into the HQ section.

We can renounce to give them the "Force Leader" Trait and let them in the Command Section and give them instead to provide additional Fleet Assets for the Army, like the Techmarine do it with the Armor Assets.
Silvereye wrote:Command Assets
Add Apothecary (none / 0-3 / any number)
HQ
1. Space Marine Chapter Master (none / none / 0-1)
- Space Marine Honour Guard
- Space Marine Chapter Champion
- Space Marine Chapter Standard Bearer
2. Space Marine Captian (none / 0-1 / 1+)
- Master of the Arsenal
- Master of the Recruits
- Master of the Fleet
- Master of the Watch
2.1 Space Marine Command Squad
- Space Marine Apothecary
- Space Marine Company Champion
- Space Marine Company Standard Bearer
3. Space Marine Chaplain (none / 0-1 / 1+)
4. Space Marine Veteran (1 / 1-5 / any Number)

I have him as part of the command squad, because there is only one Apothecary per company. So I'm not sure if we should change that.
Silvereye wrote:Basic Assests
Space Marine Assault Squad (none / 0-1 / any Number) - The Bike and Speeder assets strike me as things that would be in the low priority force - Pickets/Scouts/Patrols etc. Change to (0-1 / 0-3 / any Number), I believe they are also drawn from the Battle and Tactical Companies?
Have you not seen the Scout Bike Squadron and the Land Speeder Storm? They are unlimited on all Priority levels. In my view the mission of the space marine scouts are the partols and the reconnaissance. The normal Bike Squadrons are for hit and run missions or for fast assaults. And based on the Codex Astrates only the Assault Marines of the battle companies and all members of the 8. Reserve Company drive the bikes and attack bikes .
Silvereye wrote:First Company Asset
Space Marine Terminator Squad (none / 0-1 / any Number)
- Tactical Squad (add Land Raider as Transport option?)
This transport option, they should definitely get and I had listed that in the appropriate unit description also. But I would like to make this option depend on the availability of appropriate Armor Assets. They still have their teleport option to arrive the battlefield.
Silvereye wrote:Armoury Assets
Make more slots available with Techmarines - they wouldn't leave the fun toys behind.
You could be right that there are too few slots. But I'm not sure what number is reasonable for one Techmarine.
Silvereye wrote:Tarantuala's for defensive missions only (0-1 / 0-3 / any Number)?
Your reasoning is correct. But how we can implement this meaningful, that they are used only for defense missions?
Silvereye wrote:Drop the Rapier, it's more suited to Imperial Guard equipment.
No problem with that. I had taken this idea from the 2nd Edition because I like the weapon.
Silvereye wrote:Fleet Assets
Make Drop Pods more available for being an attacker.
See my comment for the Librarian. I would like to add that we can make them unlimitedly available and control their selection with the available Fleet Assets. What do you thinking about that idea?

So I update my comments and now they are complete.

I am grateful for further comments and criticisms.

@Tau & Orcs Stats...

Guys, I'm looking forward to these stats ... I can hardly wait ...

Greetz
Arkon
Last edited by Arkon4000 on Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:17 am, edited 4 times in total.
wolfprophet
Weasel
Posts: 42
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:51 pm

Postby wolfprophet » Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:28 pm

Silvereye wrote:Light/Assault Weapons
Bolt guns/pistols, still not convinced they should be Piercing/2, it is that shift to AP 5 in recent editions of the rules...
I'm not convinced they should be AP5 in 40K. We're talking about a 20mm rifle that uses rocket assisted rounds with explosive cores. Closest thing we have to that today is the Neopup PAW-20. If you've seen the movie District 9. It was the rifle Colonel Koobus used to finally bring down the Prawn battlesuit in the end.. And the Neopup isn't even rocket assisted for that extra armour penetrating goodness! :D


Quick thought on the Sniper Rifle though. I think they should be rather universal for the most part. An Imperial sniper rifle for the IG wouldn't be much different from a modern M40 rifle in terms of power (the Lasgun itself is equated as being about as strong as a G3/FAL/CETME rifle.) the Astartes sniper rifle is powered by an extra energy pack, but is otherwise just an upgraded IG sniper rifle... So, I suppose for sake of ease, we can just take the Barret .50 cal sniper stats from one of the other books for it. No need to overcomplicate a sniper weapon by tacking on tons of traits.

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