Ship classes, sizes and scales

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Ship classes, sizes and scales

Postby Slayers » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:32 pm

Hi there,

I'm currently in the process of building a couple of B5 fleets and as many of you here I'm doing it by combining full scale miniatures for the larger ships and fleet scale for the smaller ones. And I couldn't help wonder exactly what constitutes al large ship and what constitutes as small and which ships should fall into those catagory's.

Throughout the series and games ships have been designated using "old" navy classes carriers/dreadnoughts/destroyers/(heavy) cruisers/corvettes etc. and I've been thinking/researching about what those classes actually mean and how they relate to each other.
Here's what I've come up with so far based mostly on what I could find on "old" navy definitions, from small too large:

Fighters
Small one or two manned spacecraft, armed & highly maneuverable used in dogfights against enemy fighters or in large numbers to defend outpost, colony's, warships or to gain space superiority by attacking fleets.
Examples:
-Abbai-Kotha Medium Fighter
-Brakiri-Falkosi Light Interceptor
-Brakiri-Pikatos Heavy Fighter
-Cascor-Caccar Ultra Light Fighter
-Cascor-Tiqincc Medium Fighter
-Cascor-Calaq Assault Fighter
-Centauri-Razik Light Fighter
-Centauri-Sentri Medium Fighter
-Centauri-Rutarian Strike Fighter
-Dilgar-Thorun Torpedo Fighter
-Drazi-Star Snake Light Attack Fighter
-EA-Starfury (Nova, Aurora, Tiger, Thunderbolt, Badger, Firebolt)
-Gaim-Klikkita Light Fighter
-Gaim-Klikkitak Crewed Missile
-Minbari-Flyer
-Minbari-Nial Heavy Fighter
-Narn-Frazi Fighter
-Narn-Gorith Fighter
-Vree-Zorth Light Fighter
-Vree-Tzymm Heavy Fighter

Super Heavy Fighters
Small spacecraft heavily armed for its size used for attacking runs.
Examples:
-Brakiri-Riva Super Heavy Fighter
-Drazi-Sky Serpent Heavy Assault Fighter
-ISA-White Star Fighter

Breaching pods
Small spacecraft used for delivering boarding parties into hostile ships.
Examples:
-General-Breaching pod
-Drakh-Atas'da Breaching Pod

Shuttles
Small transport vehicle for ferrying people and/or supplies between ships and ports at short distances.
Example:
-EA-Atmospheric shuttle
-EA-Crew Shuttle

Police cutters & Patrol Boats
Not actually warships, mostly for policing, patrolling and guarding (as the names implies) strictly short range.
Examples:
-Centauri-Haven Patrol Boat
-EA-Tethys Cutter
-ISA-Blue Star
-Narn-Sho'Kos Patrol Cutter
-Pak'Ma'Ra-Porfatis Patrol Boat
-Vree-Xaar Patrol

Corvette
Small, maneuverable, lightly armed warship, between a cutter and frigate, used mostly for escort duties.
Examples:
-Abbai-Lyata Police Corvette
-EA-Olympus Corvette

Scoutships
Usually fairly small, less well armed than other ships of similar size, and equipped with stealth and/or ELINT capabilities.
Examples:
-Abbai-Skiatha Escort Scout
-Brakiri-Shakara Scout Cruiser
-Centauri-Corvan Scout
-Dilgar-Jashakar Scout Frigate
-Drakh-Kamar'e Scout
-EA:EY-Oracle Scout Cruiser
-Gaim-Stak Scout
-Hyach-Senchlat Kes Combat Scout
-Minbari-Leshat Heavy Scout
-Narn-Sho'Kar Light Scout Cruiser
-Vree-Vaarl Scout Saucer

Tender
Small to medium supply ship for transporting supplies to front line ships.
Examples:
-EA-Hermes
-EA-Cotton Tender

Frigate
Small to medium size, maneuverable, multipurpose lightly armed warship, used for escorts but also stand alone/scouting missions.
Examples:
-Abbai-Shyarie Jammer Frigate
-Abbai-Tiraca Attack Frigate
-Brakiri-Halik Fighter-Killer/Frigate
-Cascor-Tacacci Strike Frigate
-Centauri-Morgrath Frigate
-Centauri-Maximus Frigate
-Centauri-Darkner Fast Attack Frigate
-Drazi-Claw Eagle Direct Assault Frigate
-EA-Artemis Heavy Frigate
-EA:TA-Chronos Frigate
-Hyach-Okath Kat Fast Frigate
-ISA-Nolo'Tar Frigate
-Minbari-Torotha Assault Frigate
-Narn-Thentus Frigate
-Narn-T'Rakk Frigate

Somewhere around here I'll make the switch from fleet to Full scale

Gunships
Small to medium sized ships, heavily armed, fast, maneuverable used for attack runs and heavy assaults.
Examples:
-Centauri-Kutai Gun Boat
-Centauri-Vorchan Warship
-Dilgar-Rohric Assault Ship
-Drakh-Light Raider
-Drakh-Heavy Raider
-Drazi-Sunhawk "Battle Cruiser"
-EA:TA-Myrmidon LCV
-Gaim-Sataaka Gunship
-Hurr-Gunship
-ISA-Whitestar Gunship
-ISA-Liandra
-Minbari-Neshatan Gunship
-Vree-Xorr War Saucer

White Star
ISA Swiss army knife

Destroyers
Medium to large warships, heavily armed escorts intended to protect the battle fleet, used mostly in a defensive manner and generally operate in groups
Examples:
-Cascor-Qoricc Destroyer
-Centauri-Altarian Destroyer
-Centauri-Sulust Escort Destroyer
-Dilgar-Ochlavita Destroyer
-Drakh-Ria'Stor Gris Fast Destroyer
-Narn-Ka'Toc Battle Destroyer
-Narn-Var'Nic Long Range Destroyer
-Narn-Rongoth Destroyer

bombardment ship
Medium to large warships armed with long range weapons, typically projectiles such as missiles or torpedoes, the bombardment ship's job is to sit at the back of the fleet and fire off a few salvoes before the fleets close to battle, then continue to fire from the rear in support of the main force.
Examples:
Centauri-Elutarian Bombardment destroyer
EA:EY-Sagittarius Missile Cruiser
EA:TA-Apollo Bombardment Cruiser
Narn-Dag'Kar Missile Frigate
Vree-Xixx Torpedo Saucer

Cruisers
Large, fast warship, basically a variation of the battleship exchanging armour for speed, often specialising in a specific role.
Examples:
-Abbai-Lakara Cruiser
-Brakiri-Ikorta Light Assault Cruiser
-Brakiri-Kabrokta Assault Cruiser
-Cascor-Crocti Patrol Cruiser
-Centauri-Centurion Attack Cruiser
-Centauri-Dargan Strike Cruiser
-Dilgar-Kahtrik Assault Ship
-Dilgar-Omelos Light Cruiser
-Dilgar-Targrath Strike Cruiser
-Drakh-Kama're Sas Patrol Cruiser
-Drazi-Warbird Cruiser
-Drazi-Firehawk Advanced Cruiser
-EA-Hyperion Cruiser
-EA:TA-Marathon Advanced Cruiser
-Gaim-Shuuka Queen Light Cruiser
-Gaim-Shakaak Queen Cruiser
-Gaim-Skrunnka Assault Ship
-Hyach-Alichi Kav Stealth Cruiser
-Minbari-Tigara Attack Cruiser
-Minbari-Troligan Armoured Cruiser
-Narn-G'karith Patrol Cruiser
-Pak'Ma'Ra-Urik Hal Super Merchant
-Vree-Xill Battle Saucer

Battleship (of the Line)
Yes this is actually a shipclass althought often mistakenly used as a synonym for warship which is a catch all definition.
The primary warship in every fleet with the large guns and heavy armour. A generalised "Heavy" version of the cruiser.
Example:
-Abbai-Bimith Defender
-Brakiri-Avioki Heavy Cruiser
-Brakiri-Tashkat Advanced Cruiser
-Cascor-Norsca Battlecruiser
-Centauri:EY-Primus Battle Cruiser
-Centauri-Octurion Battleship
-Centauri:TA-Liati Advanced Cruiser
-Dilgar-Tikrit Heavy Cruiser
-Drakh-Dra'vash Cruiser
-Drazi-Stormfalcon Heavy Cruiser
-Drazi:TA-Fireraptor Battleship
-EA:EY-Hyperion Heavy Cruiser
-EA:EY-Orestes Battleship
-EA-Omega Destroyer
-EA:TA-Warlock Destroyer
-Gaim:TA-Shrutaa Queen Battleship
-Hyach-Irokai Kam Battle Cruiser
-Ipsha-War Globe
-Minbari:EY-Tinashi Warship
-Minbari-Sharlin War Cruiser
-Narn:EY-T'Loth Assault Cruiser
-Narn-G'Quan Heavy Cruiser
-Narn:TA-G'Vhran Fast Cruiser
-Pak'Ma'Ra-Psul'Shi Convoy Guardian
-Vree-Z'Takk Command Saucer

Dreadnoughts
Another variation of the battleship with even bigger guns and armour.
(the name dreadnought actually comes from a british ship meaning without(nought) fear (dread), took me a while to figure that one out, I'm not a native english speaker, the definition of this class is a ship with an 'all-big-gun' armament scheme)
Examples:
-Abbai-Juyaca Dreadnought
-Brakiri-Corumai Dreadnought
-Dilgar-Mankhat Dreadnought
-Dilgar-Mishakur Dreadnought
-EA:EY-Nova Dreadnought
-Hyach-Uratha Kal Dreadnought
-Narn-Bintak Dreadnought
-Vree-Xonn Dreadnought

Carriers
Warships designed as a platform for deploying and recovering space superiority fighters and as such generally the largest ship in any fleet.
Examples:
-Abbai-Milani Carrier
-Brakiri-Brokados Carrier
-Brakiri-Cidikar Heavy Carrier
-Centauri-Balvarin Carrier
-Dilgar-Garasoch Heavy Carrier
-Drakh-Ma'cu Carrier
-EA-Avenger Heavy Carrier
-EA-Poseidon Super Carrier
-Hyach-Tachila Scout Carrier
-ISA-White Star Carrier
-Minbari-Morshin

Armageddon
No navy equivalent here, just bigass crusade era ships souped up with ISA tech or leftover First Ones technology.
Examples:
-Abbai&Brakiri-Brivoki Advanced Warship
-Centauri-Adira Royal Battleship
-Drakh-Amu Mothership
-ISA/EA-Victory Destroyer
-Minbari-Neroon Heavy War Cruiser
-Narn-Ka'Bin'Tak Super Dreadnought

First Ones
Ships of the first ones in their own league.
Examples:
-Vorlon-Heavy Cruiser
-Shadow-BattleCrab
-Torvalus-Dark Knife
-Kirishiac-Lord Ship
-Mindriders-Thoughtforce
-Walkers-Traveller
-Triad-Triumviron

Planet Destroyers
Names says it all
Examples:
-Vorlon-Planet Killer
-Shadow-Death Cloud


Please tell me what you think, what I missed, where I'm wrong and what belongs where. I'm hoping too start a discussion here and come up with a list.

Oh yeah just to be clear I'm aware of the "priority-levels" in acta, I'm not talking about that, I do mean the actual shipclasses in B5 like Omega destroyer, Hyperion heavy cruiser, Olympus corvette.
Last edited by Slayers on Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:27 pm, edited 15 times in total.
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AdrianH
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Postby AdrianH » Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:25 am

Estimates of sizes of some of the ships which appeared on screen can be found here:
http://www.b5tech.com/oldb5tech/

The ship classes used for B5 ships (and those made up for ACTA) do not necessarily correspond to those original naval classes. For example, the Hyperion class cruiser is smaller than the Omega class destroyer.

In the absence of other data, you could use the ship's Damage rating as a rough guide to size - a ship with significantly more Damage is probably bigger than one with less Damage. It's not accurate enough to determine size but it should be good enough to decide whether you want the large or small scale model.
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Postby H » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:31 am

ships through the ages have swapped and changed their position in the ranks of naval naming too, and of course a Modern Destroyer in a wet navy is significantly larger thana WWII destroyer, and indeed may well be bigger than a WWII cruiser. This increase in size over time may be why the Omega is bigger than the hyperion, also why the Nova is actually smaller than a lot of ships too.
and of course, the mongoose scaling and indeed AOG scaling was always a "bit" iffy to start with, so the vast majority of ships that exists in ACTA are probably going to be difficult to work to scale unless you run on somethign like adrians suggestion on Damage (but then a T'Loth becomes bigger thana Sharlin which we know it isn't)

As such, I think your endevour may well be in vain, we have umpteen different races, with different ship classifications, spanning hundreds of years, a simple classification system just won't work cross fleet, though within a fleet you may have "some" success.
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Postby AdrianH » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:31 am

Grand Master Hiff wrote:This increase in size over time may be why the Omega is bigger than the hyperion, also why the Nova is actually smaller than a lot of ships too.
The Nova is almost as big as the Omega and larger than most other Earth ships. It probably was the biggest ship in EarthForce during the Dilgar and Minbari wars. (Apart from the Explorer. :))
and of course, the mongoose scaling and indeed AOG scaling was always a "bit" iffy to start with, so the vast majority of ships that exists in ACTA are probably going to be difficult to work to scale unless you run on somethign like adrians suggestion on Damage (but then a T'Loth becomes bigger thana Sharlin which we know it isn't)
I did say that Damage isn't an accurate indication of size but can be used to decide whether to get the B5 Wars/Mongoose or Fleet Action scale model. ;) The T'Loth and Sharlin both have lots of Damage points so you'd get the larger scale models. The Sunhawk has much less Damage so you'd get the Fleet Action model.
As such, I think your endevour may well be in vain, we have umpteen different races, with different ship classifications, spanning hundreds of years, a simple classification system just won't work cross fleet, though within a fleet you may have "some" success.
That's true regardless of what classification you use. The models aren't generally to the same scale; the best you can usually say is that, within a given fleet, if the model of ship A is larger than the model of ship B then the "real" ship A is probably larger than ship B. Across different fleets even that isn't always true.
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Postby basaint » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:20 pm

I was trying to use Adrian's logic and go off damage. I think my points reflected 30 pts of damage and less, we're going to be FA scale minis and one class for sure, scouts, were FA. Cuz who's supposed to be stealthy if you're the size of a small moon?! :shock:

haha :D
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Postby Slayers » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:07 pm

I know especially in the real world most country's and army tended to come up with there own definitions of ship classes. Although there where times when certain ship types were well defined due to arms treaties, like the light and heavy cruisers in the London Naval treaty.

But in fiction, writers tend to put ships in general broadly defined classes based on things like size, armament and function for easy comparison (although they do mix it up a lot of the times) and situational awareness for the viewer/reader/gamer, and a lot of ships in the B5 universe do have classifications as frigate, destroyers etc. Of course there will also be ships that fit into multiple classes due to their multiple roles and ships that don't fit anywhere because they're too far outside the box.

Grand Master Hiff wrote:ships through the ages have swapped and changed their position in the ranks of naval naming too, and of course a Modern Destroyer in a wet navy is significantly larger thana WWII destroyer, and indeed may well be bigger than a WWII cruiser. This increase in size over time may be why the Omega is bigger than the hyperion, also why the Nova is actually smaller than a lot of ships too.
You're absolutely right here most current day destroyers are in fact larger then the cruisers from the previous generation. This translated quite well into the ship classification of the EA ships. The Hyperion was pretty much the largest ship in the fleet of its time and fast (no lumbering trait) so heavy cruiser was a fitting classification. The next gen. Omega destroyer is larger but slower and given its usage as an capitalship it would logically be put in the battleship (of the line) classification, also considering the configuration of the Nova Dreadnoughts (dreadnoughts being a variation of the battleship see first posting), which is basically a skimmed down version of the omega but with really big guns (yeah I know the Nova design is older then the Omega, but seriously just look at it :roll: ).
But if you factor in the existence of the Tantalus assault cruiser the destroyer classification makes sense again.
and one class for sure, scouts, were FA.
I've been thinking about this class of ships as well but couldn't come up with a good definition because this class of ships seems to be a pure scifi artefact, wetnavy scoutships don't exist as far as I know they use airplanes for this :o . Plus some fleets use ships from other classes with multiple roles as scouts while others have dedicated scout ships.
As for size I agree with you that they should naturally be small
Cuz who's supposed to be stealthy if you're the size of a small moon?!
but there is on major exeption I read somewhere on this forum that the explorer class ship needed to decide whether it was the largest scout in the galaxy or the smallest base :P I really laughed at that one :lol: .

Anyways what are your thoughts on a definition/description of dedicated scoutships class?
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Postby Da Boss » Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:22 pm

and of course the White Star is in a class of its own!

As I understand it Battleships are also often Command and Control ships as well as powerful ships of the line whilst Dreadnoughts are simply designed to be total warships with little or no otehr cpaabilities.

A number of ships appear on screen together - Like Novas and Omegas, Vorchans and Primus which may be handy for your project.
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Postby H » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:25 am

Da Boss wrote:and of course the White Star is in a class of its own!
the Cheese class?
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Postby AdrianH » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:26 am

Slayers wrote:I know especially in the real world most country's and army tended to come up with there own definitions of ship classes.
And that's just different factions within one species. ACTA covers ships from lots of different species. There's also probably some influence from Star Wars, where the biggest fighting ships are classed as destroyers. :)
Anyways what are your thoughts on a definition/description of dedicated scoutships class?
Most scouts in ACTA are dedicated. They're usually fairly small (Patrol or Skirmish level), less well armed than other ships of similar size, and equipped with some level of stealth. There are exceptions of course, but most scouts fit that description.

The main exceptions are the White Star and Shadow Scout, which can both fight and scout. These could probably be classed as frigates - in the age of sail, frigates were used for scouting and were also effective fighting ships.
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Postby Slayers » Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:53 pm

AdrianH wrote: These could probably be classed as frigates - in the age of sail, frigates were used for scouting and were also effective fighting ships.
During the age of sail destroyers, cruisers, dreadnoughts & carriers (this would've been an interesting concept what would it "carry" fighter kites, dive bomber pidgeons :lol: ) did not exit yet most of these were developed during or at the end of the industrial age.
For sailing warships the classification went from sloop-of-war to frigate and then directly to battleship of the line. So indeed frigates performed an number of roles and stil do. I think the definition or roles of a frigate haven't really changed that much across the ages just beter defined, it's more the battleship of the line that kept evolving with the times constantly being upgraded and improved to keep up as capital ships. The newer classifications were then invented too fill in the growing gap between frigates and battleships.
Da Boss wrote:
and of course the White Star is in a class of its own!
Well I don't know in size and function its somewhat like a medium ship say like a drazi sunhawk performing patrol/escort and attack duties. It's just a little bit more advanced with its:
-Jump Engines
-Gravimetric drive
-Artificial gravity
-Vorlon based sensors for detecting (hyper) spatial anomalies
-Adaptive armour
-Self repairing systems
-Holographic viewscreen
-Awesome surround sound for making rainy noises...

Yeah, on second thought the white star is in league of its own :wink: , like the wet dream of every admiral in the galaxy a pocket ship capable of performing every duty from scouting & reconnaisance to surgical strikes to massive assaults against ships several times its size to policing and peacekeeping and even time travelling :P . Sheridan did made a comment about this fearing that this could never go on forever which is why he decided to develop the Victory-class.

But that does remind me I think I'm missing a classification for medium warships like the sunhawk, something between a heavy frigate and light cruiser.
Medium sized ships, heavily armed, fast, manoeuvrable used for attack runs and heavy assaults. Gunship/boat maybe or assaultship or LCV (light combat vehicle) any other suggestions?
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Postby locarno24 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:23 pm

For example, the Hyperion class cruiser is smaller than the Omega class destroyer.
Blame George Lucas for this one. Ever since star wars, people seem to default to calling a spacebourne warship a 'destroyer' because it sounds bad-ass.

It's the same as 'battlecruiser' which was a pretty rapidly aborted concept of overgunning a cruiser chassis that didn't work when put against proper ships of the line (not that they were meant to). But, once again, it sounds awesome, so the designation is re-used in sci-fi a lot, and substituted for 'battleship' whenever the scriptwriter feels it sounds more impressive.

And, of course, the B5 universe introduces it's own unique bracket, just to keep things confusing - the War Cruiser. The term is used (at least) by the Minbari and Narn, so it should have a standard(ish) meaning,
Medium sized ships, heavily armed, fast, manoeuvrable used for attack runs and heavy assaults. Gunship/boat maybe or assaultship or LCV (light combat vehicle) any other suggestions?
LCV (or possibly MCV - white stars aren't that small!) was the designation used in Babylon 5 Wars to encompass the White Star, Vorchan, Sunhawk et al. Seems good enough to me.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Postby AdrianH » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:05 pm

Slayers wrote:For sailing warships the classification went from sloop-of-war to frigate and then directly to battleship of the line. So indeed frigates performed an number of roles and stil do. I think the definition or roles of a frigate haven't really changed that much across the ages just beter defined, it's more the battleship of the line that kept evolving with the times constantly being upgraded and improved to keep up as capital ships. The newer classifications were then invented too fill in the growing gap between frigates and battleships.
The frigate in the age of sail was the equivalent to a cruiser in the age of steam. In WW2 the word was completely redefined to mean a small ASW ship. Post WW2, frigates became larger and incorporated new technologies such as missiles, but were still specialised - usually ASW, but some were AA.

The destroyer was originally the torpedo boat destroyer, specifically designed to defend larger ships against torpedo boats, which were small ships armed with the newly invented torpedo. Destroyers got torpedo tubes of their own and took over the torpedo boat's role. The submarine, effectively a torpedo boat which could go underwater, gave the destroyer its original job back, in addition to any other duties. Post WW2, destroyers were larger than frigates and were multipurpose. More recently, the distinction has become rather blurred - some modern frigates are bigger than contemporary destroyers and are multipurpose.

So classifications do change with time and technology. Fast forward a couple of centuries to the age of starships, with completely new technology, and it is not surprising if classifications change.
But that does remind me I think I'm missing a classification for medium warships like the sunhawk, something between a heavy frigate and light cruiser.
Medium sized ships, heavily armed, fast, manoeuvrable used for attack runs and heavy assaults. Gunship/boat maybe or assaultship or LCV (light combat vehicle) any other suggestions?
In ACTA, the Sunhawk is a small ship, lightly armed and rather fragile. Gunship or LCV would be appropriate. (Compare to the Myrmidon LCV in the Earth Alliance Crusade fleet list.)
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Postby Slayers » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:57 pm

Updated and expanded the list, added some examples.
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Postby AdrianH » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:34 pm

I would class the Omega, Primus and G'Quan as battleships by your definition: "the primary warship in every fleet with the large guns and heavy armour".

The term "dreadnought" originally referred to ships with all big gun armament, but all subsequent battleships were dreadnoughts and the term was dropped. If you're going to use it for battleships with even bigger guns then ACTA's War level ships such as the Sharlin and Octurion would qualify. The Nova does not; during the Dilgar and Minbari wars, it would fit your definition of "battleship", but it was made obsolete by the Omega.

The Amu is "armageddon" (albeit with Drakh rather than ISA tech). This thing is huge (B5tech lists its length as 59.69km) and is also known as the Mothership. Normal carriers hold fighters; the Amu holds destroyers and even cruisers.
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Postby l33tpenguin » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:23 pm

If you want a good visual of the size difference of the ships, go here:
http://www.st-minutiae.com/misc/comparison/

Sadly, as it goes for 'classification' I think it all boils down to what the writers thought sounded best when naming the ships. The 'class' is mearly just an extension of the name, rather than an actual classification
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Postby captainsmirk » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:51 pm

I've always though that at least when it came to to the Earthforce ships there was at least a plausible progression in place (whether by accident or design on the developers parts...).

Prior to the Minbari War they seem to rely primarily on a strong force of cruisers supported by a few dreadnoughts and carriers, as well a a collection of smaller escorts and other support ships. At this point the classification of destroyer seems to have fallen out of usage.

After the Minbari War they introduce the Omega (which is mass produced to replace wartime losses). This is actually very different to the earlier cruisers not only bigger and more heavily armed but has the carrier capacity of an old dreadnought. This takes over as the "ship of the line" and they reuse the old term of destroyer to classify this new ship type (late being used for the Warlock as well).

The other types are still there but other than some new even bigger super-carriers, new scouts and a one type of new escort most of them are simply the survivors of the pre-Minbari War fleet.


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Postby Slayers » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:26 pm

Updated and expandend the list some more.
AdrianH wrote:If you're going to use it for battleships with even bigger guns then ACTA's War level ships such as the Sharlin and Octurion would qualify. The Nova does not; during the Dilgar and Minbari wars, it would fit your definition of "battleship", but it was made obsolete by the Omega.
I don't they just have to have more firepower then their own battleships in the same timeframe, more to the point I think the term dreadnought is just as much a result of military doctorine and technological capability. For instance a "Young" race like the Narn can't make battleships or cruisers that can out maneuvre a Sharlin or Primus so they don't bother and instead go the other way piling armour and armament on their ships making them slower which doesn't really matter at that point anymore, but tougher and powerfull to keep up.
On the other hand the more senior races wouldn't bother building a dreadnought cause there's no need, any battleship they build could easily match up to the younger battleships and dreadnoughts due to their technological superiority. Which is why I wouldn't consider the Sharlin or Octurion Dreadnoughts.
AdrianH wrote:I would class the Omega, Primus and G'Quan as battleships by your definition: "the primary warship in every fleet with the large guns and heavy armour".
Yeah I've been thinking about that if a cruiser is a "light" battleship exchanging armour for speed then what is a "Heavy"Cruiser"?

Which would explain the classification for the Primus and G'Quan.
(yeah, I know there is a definition of heavy cruisers solidified in wet-naval treaties which puts it beneath a battleship in armament and size but I don't think that really applies here)
captainsmirk wrote:After the Minbari War they introduce the Omega (which is mass produced to replace wartime losses). This is actually very different to the earlier cruisers not only bigger and more heavily armed but has the carrier capacity of an old dreadnought. This takes over as the "ship of the line" and they reuse the old term of destroyer to classify this new ship type (late being used for the Warlock as well).
This is the odd duck out of the lot, I have to agree the Omega "destroyer"is a battleship of the line in every way, I just don't get why it's called a destroyer in the first place. (Yeah I know Star Wars :evil: )
I would buy the redefinition of the term destroyer if the other races hadn't had destroyers as wel that conformed to the old definition like the Centauri-Sulust and Narn-Ka'Toc

I knew the Amu was a big mothership but I had no idea it was that big, it's bigger then B5. Fixed the definitions here and there.
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Postby AdrianH » Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:33 am

You're going to get into all sorts of trouble if you pay any attention to the classifications used in ACTA for alien ships. For one thing, the little Sunhawk is classed as a battlecruiser. :lol:

I would still say that battleships are defined as you say, "the primary warship in every fleet with the large guns and heavy armour". Within ACTA, these can usually be found at Battle priority level. Cruisers are one level down, smaller and faster, typically found at Raid level. Advanced races such as the Minbari have their battleships and cruisers one level up due to superior technology, so their battleship is the Sharlin and their heavy cruiser is the Tinashi.

The basic White Star would fit well into the definition for gunship; it does not need a class of its own just because it has better technology than most other gunships. The White Star Gunship is bigger than a White Star and probably counts as a cruiser, only it gets there from the other direction - instead of being a battleship with less armament and more speed, it's a gunship with more armament and less speed. This could answer your question about heavy cruiser versus light battleship - a heavy cruiser is a small battleship, a light cruiser is a big gunship.

There may be room for another class, one which has no equivalent in traditional navies - bombardment ship. Armed with long range weapons, typically projectiles such as missiles or torpedoes, the bombardment ship's job is to sit at the back of the fleet and fire off a few salvoes before the fleets close to battle, then continue to fire from the rear in support of the main force. Examples are the Sagittarius and Apollo from Earth, the Narn Dag'Kar, the Centauri Elutarian and the Vree Xixx.
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Postby captainsmirk » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:31 pm

Slayers wrote: This is the odd duck out of the lot, I have to agree the Omega "destroyer"is a battleship of the line in every way, I just don't get why it's called a destroyer in the first place. (Yeah I know Star Wars :evil: )
I would buy the redefinition of the term destroyer if the other races hadn't had destroyers as wel that conformed to the old definition like the Centauri-Sulust and Narn-Ka'Toc.
This problem all stems from AoG who managed to follow the (admittedly probably accidental) system the series created for Earthforce ships but then reverted to using original naval classifications when they started creating new alien ships for the game. The mess was then simple passed onto Mongoose when they took over the license.


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Postby Slayers » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:42 pm

AdrianH wrote:You're going to get into all sorts of trouble if you pay any attention to the classifications used in ACTA for alien ships. For one thing, the little Sunhawk is classed as a battlecruiser. :lol:
Saw that one coming :P , figured the Drazi classed it as a cruiser out af an inflated view of their own capability's. Beyond that I'd have to say the classifications in ACTA aren't that random, there seems to be a preference for the Cruiser denomination and there are a couple of other odd labels and combinations, but overall there is"at least a plausible progression in place" plus you have to start somewhere :P ,
AdrianH wrote:The basic White Star would fit well into the definition for gunship; it does not need a class of its own just because it has better technology than most other gunships.
I didn't class the White Star as a gunship because it had such a broad use it really is a swiss army knife unlike the Whitestar Gunship which has a dedicated function despite being bigger.
And you gotta respect the classic White Star for what it is.
AdrianH wrote:There may be room for another class, one which has no equivalent in traditional navies - bombardment ship.
Good one :wink: added it.

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