Damage system - alittle lost...?

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Damage system - alittle lost...?

Postby soulman » Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:07 pm

Hi matt and all, i had a look at the rules, and seem that you have gone with the D10 then the old D6 ideas etc.....

What i`m writing about tonight was about the damage system, it says that a Hit makes you lose a wound, so models take a automatic or is it a " Check " meaning a D10 is rolled with a Hit and you need a 6+ to score a wound..?

1. Shooting is D10 + shooting skill
Target rolls D10 + Agility

And Damage

2. Roll D10 + And any damage level, score 6+ to cause a Hit

Or Any hit Scores a number of Hits based on its damage score...?

Thanks, its late and i`m sleepy, so sorry if its all wrong..!!!!
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Postby MongooseMatt » Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:02 am

No worries!

Damage is automatic - you lose one Hit if you fail your Armour roll. If a weapon has a Damage score, then you lose that many Hits (so, if a weapon has Damage 2, you lose 2 Hits should you fail an Armour roll).

There is (so far, as I recall) only one instance where you actually have a check (that is, roll, add the relevant score, and get 6 or more to succeed), and that is jumping over gaps. However, more will be added later - it is a general catch-all rule that we can implement cool things with later.
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Postby soulman » Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:09 am

Thanks matt, unless other games where a weapon may or may not kill you like the table in many GW games, in this ruleset any weapon hitting you with cause a Hit, and so with minor figures thats all it takes, for tougher figures, its extra hits that makes them fight on...

I see that this can be a fast paced game, one with many figures and infact 1 hit armies..!!!

Last night, on the " Last stand on devils ranch " the figures stats have " Reslience "on it from the old playtest....

Cheers
Alan

Ps.. i do like the Armour roll being a D10, this means Many types of Armour, from vests to " Old style starship trooper suits " :-)
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Postby soulman » Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:48 pm

Hi people, just popping on and asking about the damage system, whats your thoughts...?

Do you like the idea of that once you are hit with a weapon you lose a Hit or more..?

,ost system have some kind of save ( not talking armour ) or a strength vs toughness table like GW games..

For a ww2 game with this system a Hit is Dead, does not matter if its a 9mm from a sten or a Kar 98 etc..

Modern its the same with a save for the vest..
And the times move forward to power armour etc..

Of cause being removed from the table, may still mean you are alive for another fight.

Then again looking at the GW system etc, a standed weapon hitting a standed person its a 4+ to kill, so you could get hit several times and hang in there...

Do you love it or hate it..?
Is a single hit to remove a figure what you feel is right..?

For heroes and say daleks you need several hits to so toughness, could this be alot of tokens needed..?

Your thoughts and thank you for reading
Alan
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Postby MongooseMatt » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:26 am

soulman wrote: For a ww2 game with this system a Hit is Dead, does not matter if its a 9mm from a sten or a Kar 98 etc..

Of cause being removed from the table, may still mean you are alive for another fight.
Indeed. People hit by bullets tend to either a) go down, regardless of the extent of the injury or b) don't notice they have been hit until later. The Jack Bauer thing of being covered in your own blood and hobbling along to take out the bad guys does not happen that often, really...

This, at least, is what the system is meant to show.
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locarno24
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Postby locarno24 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:20 pm

I like it. I don't mind the roll-to-wound; it's preferable to lots of tokens for every man in a force. Remember Warhammer is build around forces of 40+ soldiers, so a 4+ roll of 'dead or not' is preferable to everyone having two hits.

For Judge Dredd, hit=wound is fine. Shrugging off a bullet when you are a genetically enhanced guy wearing what is essentially a tank with gold leaf is fine. Shrugging off a bullet when you are a normal guy off the street is not.



Most of the 'Jack Bauer' guys will be people with more than one hit, anyway (Senior Judges and the like). There will rarely be many on the table at once.

Of course, they rarely have more than 2, and with pretty much anything but sidearms being damage 2 or better (sawn off - though curiously not full-barrelled - stump guns, sniper weapons, hand cannons, and all heavy weapons), so you're either dependant on armour or a nearby sort with a med-kit unless you've somehow racked up multiple 'tough' skills.

Maybe a good talent might be something to help?


Won't Stay Dead
Due to a mix of courage, anger, pain-b-gone pills, and not having enough brains to realise he has medically dead for some time, this model can shrug off quite horrific looking injuries and keep fighting for a short while longer.

If the model is reduced to 0 hits, and is not stabilized with a medi-kit, it may make a Will To Fight check. If passed, it may stand up and continue to fight normally. The model must make an additional Will To Fight check before making any action from now on. It need not take a check if it makes no actions.

As soon as the model receives any additional damage, or fails the Will To Fight check described above, then it is removed from the game as normal, and a medi-kit may not be used to stabilize it.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Postby soulman » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:33 pm

Hi matt, and thanks for replying, my last post was a little late last night, and yes of course a Hit would put you down and out...

2 hits for the " Heros " like Jack from 24 with a Good Will score for surpressing etc, so he keep going when he drops from 2 hits to 1 etc..

Most other systems for RPG you are Hit you lose health etc, its just alot of systems stick around the GW tables with Toughness saves etc..

For zombies Matt, with they have a armour save, or 2 hits..?

I know Armour is just armour items, not inbuilt toughness and guts..
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Postby locarno24 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:47 pm

I'd suggest an effective armour rather than multiple hits. If anything.

Zombies, a la Necropolis, need to be turning up in droves, so multiple hits aren't viable.


They should be fairly easy to hit, but hard to bring down with light weapons (since you need to hit them in the head!). Maybe an agility bonus of +1 to +3 that only applies when being shot at by weapons with damage 2 or less?

As a result, High-Ex will drop them like a sack of something squishy, as will a stump gun at close range, and a laser rifle will slice them to chunks resident evil stylee.

A spit gun, however, and even a heavy spit gun, will need a lot of dice or a good shot to drop one, and even judges who are down to standard execution rounds are in trouble.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Postby MongooseMatt » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:48 pm

soulman wrote:
For zombies Matt, with they have a armour save, or 2 hits..?
Good question. What you really want is for any normal weapon to be able to down a zombie, but for you to rattle off multiple shots as you blow away arms, legs, noses, while it still comes for you.

Off the top of my head, a special rule like a Zombie only goes down if you roll a 10 on your Shooting Dice, or some such. Give it a bad (very bad!) Agility, and make it move slowly.

This way, you have all the time in the world to defend against a wave of zombies, but you had better get those good shots in, or you will be completely overwhelmed!
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Postby locarno24 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:19 pm

Good question. What you really want is for any normal weapon to be able to down a zombie, but for you to rattle off multiple shots as you blow away arms, legs, noses, while it still comes for you.

Off the top of my head, a special rule like a Zombie only goes down if you roll a 10 on your Shooting Dice, or some such. Give it a bad (very bad!) Agility, and make it move slowly.
Thing is that there should be some exemption/condition for damage. Bullet in the shoulder won't stop it, but a 105mm shell in the shoulder most definitely will.

Regardless of what you call the rule, base agility should suck, as you noted (unless you want 28 days later zombies)
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Postby MongooseMatt » Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:59 pm

locarno24 wrote:
Thing is that there should be some exemption/condition for damage. Bullet in the shoulder won't stop it, but a 105mm shell in the shoulder most definitely will.
That is what the Damage score is for :) A Hi-ex missile launcher will total '10' a lot more than a zip gun...

Also gets round the high AP weapons doing well against zombies if we bump up their armour (when they should probably do worse), and saves a dice roll (the Armour roll) to boot!
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Postby locarno24 » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:19 pm

Not on the shooting dice, it won't. Not by default, anyway.

Shooting dice + damage must beat a score of X seems an easy one to have for a general 'back pocket' special rule. As you say, it removes a die roll (always good) but provides you with a readily tweakable 'ignore light gunfire' mechanic.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Postby soulman » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:25 pm

Zombies seem to get everybody talking..!!!

1. Zombies will have low Agility, say a -1 so they are easy to hit...

2. Give them a Armour rating based on the fact that bullets go though them

3. Shotguns have powershot thats a + 1 damage extra upto 6"

4. Shotguns also have blast, for knocking back with the force, like in the games and films etc

5. Chainsaws slice though armour, so a armour score of a zombie will drop - Even that they are nosey and will make the zombies come closer to you

6. If you give zombies 2 Hits, the above chainsaw and shotgun at close range is better then bullets, so that works..

7. a 10 rolled removes the zombies armour score..

8. We don`t have a special action for Aiming at the moment, and maybe its a special extra when aiming at zombies, maybe a 9 or 10 instead of 10 for a critical hit, or a extra -1 to agility for shooting them...

Bsck to cooking.. and nice to see people now talking about this system...
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Postby tnjrp » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:28 am

soulman wrote:Hi people, just popping on and asking about the damage system, whats your thoughts...?

Do you like the idea of that once you are hit with a weapon you lose a Hit or more..?

,ost system have some kind of save ( not talking armour ) or a strength vs toughness table like GW games..
Generally (haven't had a chance to read the playtest rules for JDMG yet), the damage mechanism would depend on other factors in the game.

If it's a small scale skirmish game with just a few models per side (can't recall if it's OK to mention other brand names on this board or not so I won't), the dice used provide for high granularity (d10 is a little low for this, think d20 or even d100) and especially if it has RPG style elements such as advancement and especially the chance of picking up weapons and equipment gametime, then having a separate targeting skill for a character/trooper is OK. In such a case the level of abstraction can be thought to be so low that the indiviual differences in marksmanship become significant on a model-per-model basis.

There is also something to be said for the opponent involvement especially if the game has a mechanic typical of the most popular miniature games where each player activates his/her entire force at a time (commonly known by the acronym IGOUGO), so one prefers some kind of anti-damage roll. Still there is little reason to saddle either player with a further roll as in the A-to-hit/A-to-wound/B-to-save solution.

In a large skirmish/battle level game with several dozen of minis on board per side and it's highly atypical to have models pick up enemy weapons and equipment gametime (or at all), the level of abstraction must necessarily be higher. Thus the invidual character's skill at killing and tenacity at avoiding this can easily be subsumed into the mass of troops -- for example one Judge in a squad might be a slighly better shot than the average, another a little worse, but when the abstraction is at squad level the average counts. This does away with the need for a single character skill based to-hit roll modified by the weapon and can be replaced by a to-hit target number for the weapon. This can then be further abstracted by removing the anti-damage roll, or not if desired, as the targets of the shots can also be assumed to fairly homogenous as such.

So in short, it depends entirely on what kind of game you want to accomplish. Usually people tend to like games that are easy to learn and quick to play these days and if your aim to is to sell shetload of minis then the obvious way is to go for a fairly abstract battle game :wink:
HeRoS -- Spefi miniature gaming in Turku, Finland
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Postby locarno24 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:57 am

Zombies seem to get everybody talking..!!!
This is because zombies are cool.
1. Zombies will have low Agility, say a -1 so they are easy to hit...
Makes sense.
2. Give them a Armour rating based on the fact that bullets go though them
Which is why armour didn't seem right; an armour piercing round is going to go straight through a zombie, rather than lodge in it, but it won't do that much more 'organic damage', which is what you need.
Shotgun>AP bullets
3. Shotguns have powershot thats a + 1 damage extra upto 6"
Which is irrelevant if 'zombie-ness' is represented by armour.
4. Shotguns also have blast, for knocking back with the force, like in the games and films etc
Yes (although Power Shot and Blast are the other way around). Given that you need to be within 6" to get the benefit of a harder hit, 'knock-back' is going to be very important to stop the zombie chowing down on you if you don't kill it.
5. Chainsaws slice though armour, so a armour score of a zombie will drop - Even that they are nosey and will make the zombies come closer to you
Chainsaws have damage 2, though, which is as important as their AP.
6. If you give zombies 2 Hits, the above chainsaw and shotgun at close range is better then bullets, so that works..
Problem; if using zombies there should be a lot of them. With a pack of 20-30 zombies, do you really want to be keeping track of odd hits? A mechanic which leaves the zombie (un)dead or not is probably better.
7. a 10 rolled removes the zombies armour score..
As noted, not convinced it should be armour.
8. We don`t have a special action for Aiming at the moment, and maybe its a special extra when aiming at zombies, maybe a 9 or 10 instead of 10 for a critical hit, or a extra -1 to agility for shooting them...
There isn't an action for aiming generally. Okay, you have to hit a specific point on a zombie, but on the other hand aiming would reduce a normal target's agility, too.
If it's a small scale skirmish game with just a few models per side (can't recall if it's OK to mention other brand names on this board or not so I won't), the dice used provide for high granularity (d10 is a little low for this, think d20 or even d100)
One other brand name I can think of does fairly well despite only using a D6. D10 is fine.
There is also something to be said for the opponent involvement especially if the game has a mechanic typical of the most popular miniature games where each player activates his/her entire force at a time (commonly known by the acronym IGOUGO), so one prefers some kind of anti-damage roll. Still there is little reason to saddle either player with a further roll as in the A-to-hit/A-to-wound/B-to-save solution.
That's not what's being suggested. It resembles Modern Combat a great deal, except that (a) the 'target' score varies from turn to turn (based on an agility roll with a bonus or penalty) and (b) the 'kill' score is replaced with a weapon doing a fixed amount of damage. If anything, the 'opposition' makes more rolls in each shooting action because it's B-to-dodge/A-to-hit/B-to-save.
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Postby soulman » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:17 pm

Hi 24, nice to see you talking about it, maybe you should have two types of save..

ARMOUR - effected by AP effects

SAVE - Not effected by AP effects

So Zombies would be a save meaning AP as no effect
Same with Heroes and others, a SAVE is a good thing to have and can be luck, skill or training..

A JUDGE would have a SAVE say 9+ and with ARMOUR of 8+, so even a JUDGE without ARMOUR still has a 9+ to duck and roll out of the way because of training etc..

I guess it miss up the system, its just off my head..

Also Heroes and the like Jack from 24 the tv show would have say 2 Hits and a SAVE of 6+. meaning its hard to but his down even in a light leather jacket..

Back to my tea and film.. thanks for reading

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