Sheridan cheated!

[AdrianH]

I've finally realised why the Minbari hate Sheridan for nuking the Black Star.

I'm not sure whether the Earth-Minbari War counts as Early Years or 3rd Age. If it's Early Years, the Lexington might have been a Hyperion missile variant, but according to P&P Early Years doesn't get nukes. If it's 3rd Age, the missile variant no longer exists, Lexington is a regular Hyperion without any missiles, so still doesn't get nukes. Either way, it should not have had any nuclear warheads to place on asteroids.

So it's not the trick of mining an asteroid field which upset the Minbari. It's the fact that the ship which did it should never have had the means to do it. Sheridan cheated.

[Burger]

Ah you obviously didn't see the deleted scene, where he sent some nukes through Sector 14, back in time onto the Lexington

[McKickaha]

John "nuke-em" Sheridan always has a spare in his pocket at all times.

[Banichi]

Personally I don't think Sheridan did use a nuke to blow up the Black Star. He just wished its crew to get to the lifepods. He blew up a couple of ships over the course of the series with that magic power.

It was that, or the Lexington was well hidden, and he was broadcasting one of his huge long speeches to the Minbari. And they blew themselves up to make it stop.

[Democratus]

All Earth ships of cruiser size or larger did have nuclear weapons. But they were on missiles designed for ground attack not space battles.

[Da Boss]

reading LCs outstanding novel - everyone uses lots of Nuclear weapons - Earth Force especially for Saturation strikes when you absolutely, positvely have to kill every Dilgar in the Star System...........

[No. 1 Bear]

Thing is sheridans actually a really powerful telepath and wished the ship to die.

[AdrianH]

All Earth ships of cruiser size or larger did have nuclear weapons. But they were on missiles designed for ground attack not space battles.

So presumably all Earth ships of Raid level or above should get an additional weapon system with the "Orbital Bomb" trait, and the in-service date for fusion missiles should be revised to allow Early Years to use them.

[lastbesthope]

I find this thread an interesting juxtaposition to the old JP Bomb discussions.

JP bombs used once in show (ITB, there was the JP in Gate bomb but that's nnot in the rules), put intules, lots of people unhappy that it was now too easy to do since it should only be a one off tactic.

Nukes on a Hyperion, once in show(ITB again) but not in rules, cue long discussion.

Now before people start flaming me, I have no real feeling either way on the discussions, I like the game and play it as written, I just find the counterpoint interesting enough to note.

Enjoy your discussion, I'm liking all the workarounds for Johnny 'Nuke 'em' that people are coming up with

LBH

[Ripple]

Yes, but nukes seemed to be fairly common and relatively safe weapons when references. At least no more dangerous than standard weapons.

Jump point bombs were considered suicide and 'crazy' to even try. I think that is where the topic gains the heat.

[AdrianH]

I didn't originally mean to seriously suggest rules be changed, I was just joking about how Sheridan could not have nuked the Black Star following existing rules. Quite apart from anything else, there is no rule for mining an asteroid field anyway. But the first thing I thought right when I saw the in-service date for fusion missiles in the playtest version of P&P, along with the specific comment that they can't be used by Early Years fleets, was "So much for Sheridan's mines". I suppose someone didn't like the idea of a Sagittarius with e-mines...

There seem to be two different interpretations of "jump point bombs". Opening a jump point within an active jump gate, a.k.a. Bonehead Manoeuvre, was considered suicidal by anything too slow to get out of the blast radius, which is anything slower than a White Star on APTE and risky even for that. Using an advanced jump engine to open a jump point on top of an enemy ship is not suicidal and is presumably what was seen in "In The Beginning".

Maybe one way to solve the whole problem is a new admiral trait, "Suicidally insane". Once in a campaign the admiral may do something gratuitously destructive which is not in the rules but must make a CQ check of at least 9 or the ship in which he has been placed explodes. Since Sheridan never did the same suicidally insane thing twice (apart from jumping from a great height without a parachute), there need be no specific description about what is being done, but players are free to use their imaginations.

[l33tpenguin]

I can see an EA vs Minbari scenario now:

Large play field, HEAVILY populated with asteroid markers. Lots of small asteroids (2 inch diameter) intermixed with a few large ones (6 inch diameter). The Minbari player starts at the far end of the table, outside the asteroid field, the EA player on the oppisite end, inside the asteroid field.

3 Battle point game, 1 of these points CANNOT be split. Any EA ship of raid or above are at -1/2 movement and -1/2 turns. The Unsplitable EA battle point is considered the EA players 'command ship' and gains +1 Command and the special action 'Detonate Nuke'

The EA player is given X number of 'Nuke' counters. The Minbari player leaves the room and the EA player places each Nuke counter under selected asteroid markers.

Nuke:
AD: 10 Range: 2
Triple damage, SAP

At any time, the command ship may use the special action 'Detonate Nuke' to activate any of the hidden Nukes. The nuke will explode, damaging all surrounding ships. Once used, the nuke and asteroid are removed from the game field.

Additionally, any ship who's base comes into contact with an asteroid suffers damage. 2 AD for small asteroids and 5 AD for large asteroids.

[lastbesthope]

Since Sheridan never did the same suicidally insane thing twice (apart from jumping from a great height without a parachute), there need be no specific description about what is being done, but players are free to use their imaginations.

In his defence both of those were done under the ten second rule, if he hadn't jumped he wouldn't have survived the next ten seconds. It would have been suicidal not to jump in both cases.

LBH

[captainsmirk]

Since Sheridan never did the same suicidally insane thing twice (apart from jumping from a great height without a parachute), there need be no specific description about what is being done, but players are free to use their imaginations.

In his defence both of those were done under the ten second rule, if he hadn't jumped he wouldn't have survived the next ten seconds. It would have been suicidal not to jump in both cases.

LBH

Interestingly in both case he was also rescued from death by a godlike ancient being...

Nick

[Burger]

How inconsiderate of the godline ancient beings. You'd think they could rescue people without them having to jump!

[l33tpenguin]

How inconsiderate of the godline ancient beings. You'd think they could rescue people without them having to jump!

Look at the history of god-like beings, how often are they considerate?

[Triggy]

I find this thread an interesting juxtaposition to the old JP Bomb discussions.

JP bombs used once in show (ITB, there was the JP in Gate bomb but that's nnot in the rules), put intules, lots of people unhappy that it was now too easy to do since it should only be a one off tactic.

Nukes on a Hyperion, once in show(ITB again) but not in rules, cue long discussion.

Now before people start flaming me, I have no real feeling either way on the discussions, I like the game and play it as written, I just find the counterpoint interesting enough to note.

Enjoy your discussion, I'm liking all the workarounds for Johnny 'Nuke 'em' that people are coming up with

LBH

Very nice counterpoints LBH (I almost typed LBG there!)

I'll get working on new rules that have precisely one insanely broken loophole in them immediately...