A New Mega-City One (Opinions Wanted)

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
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Postby steeldragon » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:29 pm

I believe there are too many good skirmish games right now, it's like the trend. Infinity, Urban War and Dark Age cover all my needs on the Sci-Fi area. Helldorado and Warmachine do the same on the Fantasy side.

I'm a miniatures gamer more than anything else, and my current "needs" of a game will probably go on more of a "game in a box", like Space Hulk.

I will be more interested in a self contained game with two sides all packaged in a box, not like a boardgame, there are plenty of those, but with cool Judges against something in a real table or a printed map (with no squares, thank you very much). Let's say the game is called Mega City 1: Riot Control. Hordes of citizens that are generating civil unrest in the streets against Judges. Give me 8-10 scenarios campaign with a slightly different taste, and that will provide great value. A game I can actually play several times, cool minis, I don't need to plan additional purchases, wait for releases that might never come or min/max army lists. Scenarios might include "Pinpoint the Leaders", "Thou shall not Pass", "Break the Lines", etc.

There should be a campaign system, what current games are missing is a way to "advance" your characters through a linked set of scenarios.

Now the game is doing well, people are attracted to the idea and Mongoose releases a new game, same basic rules and also self contained, Mega City 1: Mutant Uprising, same idea than before, Judges, with different equipment and different sculpts, plus mutants. 8-10 more scenarios. But wait a minute, this guys have included 6 additional scenarios that combine the previous release with this one. You play with the Judges in Riot Control outfit and the ones included in this game in "bigger" battles, or you just combine a few models from here and a few from there. Hey I already have the previous game, so let's give it a try... or I'm a new gamer that just grabbed this game 'cause I liked the box (or the models, the idea or it was a present...) and I would love to try those extra scenarios, so I go and buy the previous set.

I can do that with several releases, against all the opponents talked before, Robots, Dark Judges, etc. Each box should bring one diferent "named" character (or let's face it, different sculpts of Dredd). One of the games MUST involve one of the Judges in a bike (or maybe three judges in bikes against a biker gang) just for the sculpt.

This way I will buy one of the games for the miniatures, be hooked with the campaign system and keep buying the new games, 'cause they will provide me with a new experience and will expand my forces. Every gamer will have all the factions and since it's scenario driven you will not have mirror matches (so you have a Mobile Infantry army against my... mmm... Mobile Infantry and what you have... mmm... OK... Mobile Infantry, great...).

This way it's good even if you get delayed with the releases, 'cause you already have everything you need for playing or you can stop producing the games and no one will feel unsupported...

So I provided you with a commercial idea, a game basis and I can give you my resume as a miniature sculptor and amateur game designer XD

Hope you like my idea, 'cause it's the only way I will be getting into another game... :P


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Postby Da Boss » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:40 pm

Thoughts

Something like the Taunhauser game may work - a few very nice minis and a good lovely looking map........

OR

Descent is quite popular and is a Players against the GM style game where both are trying to win in the campaign - so maybe this could work with the Judges trying to defeat the minions of various Big Bads - be they Dark Judges, Angel Gang, Sov Block, Criminal Masterminds like Narcos or simply a Block War........or the Kleggs..........

OR

redo Block Mania itself 8)
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Postby btom » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:17 pm

Lots of good ideas – good to know there are still people who still play (care).

For what its worth I agree with others and think that any move to over emphasis massed combat as a fundamental part of the game is wrong. I really don’t want to see Gangs:Evolution if that means the game is focused on fighting battles connected by some flimsy campaign mechanics. Judges are about enforcing the law and although the occasional Block War scenario would be great (and an excuse to use a Manta) the game HAS to focus on small scale actions.

Having said that whatever comes out must be able to justify follow on sales – I don’t know the figures but the released product for GoMC1 would suggest that once someone had bought a gang then they could restrict their expenditure to buying a few specialists here and there. By building a dynamic (maybe narrative based campaign? which could be basis for followon supplements) system you can give players usage on pretty much all the various factions mentioned so far.

Indeed, you could use success in the campaign to be able to ‘unlock’ different forces (and therefore specific miniatures/supplements) for example:

1. The gangs gain enough gravitas and they corrupt the local citidef (unlock Citidef forces for gangs)
2. Gang sets up a base/smuggling route in the undercity/cursed earth (unlock assorted trogs/mutant/wierdos for gangs)
3. Gangs achieve certain metrics and then be able to ‘plant’ evidence against the judges (or indeed mount an attempt to bride a judge and then turn him in to the SJS) and the SJS could detach a squad to investigate. (unlock SJS for gangs)
4. Judges pitch for Wally Squad support to infiltrate the gang (unlock Wally squad for judges)
5. Gangs given a commission to steal priceless Hondo/Brit cit artefact guarded by a detachment of their judges OR the gangs setup a link with a foreign gang and the MC1 judges are sent to assist (unlock non MC1 judges)

Keeping everything around the core – Law vs crime theme does not mean you cannot use everything Mega City 1 can offer but it means that there is a central theme in keeping with the comics.
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Postby scotherns » Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:46 am

I'll add in another vote for keeping it small scale, skirmish level rather than hordes of minis.

Extremely pleased to hear this announcement!

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Postby jbuckmaster » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:11 pm

I'll repeat the Skirmish Scale sentiment, but also clarify it with: I'd like something that would handle between 5 and 30 figs per side with a decent amount of detail /where we need it/. Tracking stats on 30 figs can be annoying, but at the same time, the scale that this should operate on requires us to have more detail than a standard wargame when it comes to the figs, particularly on heroes.

I'd also like to ask for a more detailed "modelling the city" section, and maybe an intro comic from the guys at 2000AD, so we can get people on this side of the pond into the game easier.

-John
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Postby MongooseMatt » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:27 pm

Just a quick note - we never intended a mass game for MC-1. Strictly skirmish!
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Postby Paladin » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:35 pm

leutenantbrittan wrote: SJS squads
Wally Squad Judges
Hotdog Runs
League of Fatties
Angel Gang
Judda
Cit Def
Sov Judges
Riot Squad (rather than just having one miniature how about a blister pack of 3 different poses?)
Brit Cit, Texas City, Vegas, Luna Judges
Flying Squad
Dark Judges
Bite Fighters
Gila Munja Assassins
Muties
That's a few too many for the taste of most gamers. There are a lot of redundencies too. Generic baddies with a few elites and a factional bonus per army would be more tolerable than full armies in that number.
leutenantbrittan wrote: I would really like to see the game being scenario based with each side being given specific objectives. Also you could use a random events table or deck of cards to simulate the sheer randomness of the big meg (love to see Boingers Randomly dropping onto the table, weather control breaking down, Juve or eldster gangs turning up and starting a rumble, muties, dinosaurs, jimps, democracy rallys or just about any of the wierd things that can happen in the comics!)
Random Events - sounds like an S&P article in the making.
leutenantbrittan wrote:I would love to see the universe that dredd inhabits be expanded on in the game too: campaign packs could be released covering some of the major stories from 2000ad such as dredd trek over the cursed earth to deliver medical supplies to mega city 2, the judge child quest, dredds time as luna marshal, block mania, the sov invasion... the list goes on and on as theres over 25 years of stuff to cover!
A campaign pack would be nice for several of the MP mini games, but sales would have to match. I don't know that the Klendathu Campaign for SST went over as well as hoped. A PDF only would be tolerable, but more than $15 would probably hurt it too much unless the depth of content was double/triple the standard SST supplement.
leutenantbrittan wrote:There would be tons of interest in the game but it needs to focus more on the judges!
I was kind of suprised they weren't the focus of the game actually. :)




I think sticking to the concept of a BF:Evo system could be tolerable, but I wouldn't force the mold 100% (it hurt SST:WOTS too much). But heroes/Judges can be given greater lifespans with creative methods to allow them to soak more hits/dodge more successful damage.
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Postby Mr Evil » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:46 am

well i have tried to get into GOMC1 but a few things held me back.

1 gang creation was a had no character and little confusing and dull at first, when i say dull it just felt like list building.

2 it was like some one had tried to copy necromunda and some how never got done for copyright !!!

what i would like to see

Evo rule sytem maybe not stats as such but definatly the 2 actions in any order and reactions i think that sort of dynamism would put games like necromunda in a huge shadow.

vehicles, bikes and comersial vehicles, yup have them in the game, players can steal them or damage them, and in doing so have a chance of a judge being called.

look at warmachine, and stuff like throwing minis, and causing colateral damage.

what about a rule where every time a shot missed its target 1 point of colateral alert is caused, roll 1 d10 per point of colateral alert plus another D10 if in the turn colateral damage had been caused, for each 10 rolled a judges turns up.

idea being that players will retreat from game...

just ideas, i have to dash so cant finishe this for mo.
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Ideas on a Judge Dredd Skirmish Game

Postby PVS » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:03 pm

The following ideas were put together by myself (Paul Scott) and Leigh Shepherd on our thoughts for what a Judge Dredd game could be like. We’ve designed a few games of our own, and have a great love of Judge Dredd, and we’ve found a lot of Dredd-based games to date pretty unsatisfying. Perhaps that’s because a basic skirmish game is never going to contain what makes Judge Dredd so fun. We’ve tried to address a few of those points here, and we hope you’ll take them in the spirit they are given - this is the sort of Judge Dredd game we would like to play!

Game Focus
The main focus on games should be on Judges with a GM taking on the role of perps and threats. Unlike most skirmish games, neither the GM or the Judges win merely by killing their opponents, rather they win by achieving their goals.

A basic Judge is much more powerful than your basic criminal. But to balance it, Judges have a duty to uphold the law and to citizens themselves, and should be looking for arrests over body count, while criminals will just want to escape and/or carry out their mission.

On top of that, the craziness of the Big Meg should be in danger of working against them at all times. Both citizens in the vicinity of the incident and the craziness of the Big Meg should interfere with the Judges plans. The size of Mega-City One should also present the judges with a fair few issues too!

Game Contents
The game should come complete with everything needed to play. That means as well as rules, sourcebook and dice, some form of floorplans to build basic Mega-City locations - not everyone has (or wants) lots of sci-fi scenery lying about. Also, it should include cardstock heroes (and some plastic bases) of all the figures you can expect to use in a basic game.

Too many games are doomed to failure by the exhaustive funds required to play them. If the basic unadorned game isn’t hugely satisfying, then you’ve lost a lot of people already. If you get people playing the game, and get them to love it, they’ll be only too happy to buy miniatures to fill out their games.

Incidents, Investigations and Epics
Formats for games can be split into three types. An Incident is a self-contained one-off game which may be played as part of a larger campaign. An Investigation is a series of linked games, where the results of one game effects the other, and Epics should be the really big event campaigns.

The Game
When Judges are called to a scene, they may have only basic information and everything may not be as it first appears, or the identity of the perps obvious. Judges have to get control of the situation, deal with the incident, the perps, the citizens and unexpected events that crop up during the game. It should be an unpredictable fun experience for the players and once it’s over the judges have to dispense justice and leave the crime scene and the citizens in safe and good order. All in time to get to the next Incident!

Perps
A Perp’s goal is to commit their crime and get away with it. The fun for the GM is in playing these as real people, and like all villains, they win by getting away with it. The Perps may often begin the game as anonymous citizens weighing up their options - do they try and hold up their judges as they continue with their crime, or try to escape? Escape may mean getting to an escape vehicle, secret route or disappearing into the crowd of citizens. Dealing with the judges might mean a trap, an ambush, a distraction (such as engineering a dangerous incident they must also deal with) or a hostage situation. Judges must decide (and quickly) how best to deal with them.

Citizens in the Game
Citizens should be the lifeblood of any Judge Dredd game. Unpredictable, bored and sometimes just plain crazy, they ensure that dispensing justice is far from a simple matter. Citizens should be omnipresent and appear as collateral damage, milling about and generally getting into trouble, or causing further trouble! Citizens need to be kept away from danger, prevented from causing a danger themselves as they panic or riot.

As well as have them react to the situation at hand, the Citizens should also behave in a random manner. The best way to do this would be to introduce a random system, such as cards, which details what happens next.

Simps, Fatties, Uglie, Juves and stranger individuals still. Spontaneous confessors deciding at the most inappropriate time to throw themselves at the judges mercy, Citi-Def members deciding to get involved and make a citizens arrest, Scrawlers defiling the plaza, Bat-Gliders crashing in, Sky Surfers having their board requisitioned by the Judges, or stolen by the Perps. They can provide a crowd for Perps to hide in or a shield against a Judge’s lawgiver.

Experience for Judges
A Judge earns his experience on the street. And from playing games, Judge Players should be able to gradually improve their judge character, making it more about being a good judge than being a cool killing machine. Remember a judge is already much superior in combat to the average citizen. So for example an increase which gives the judge +1 to being Eagle-Eyed is perhaps more use in dealing with crime than an extra combat ability.

Further Supplements
A lot of hastily produced supplements isn’t a good idea. The sourcebook with the main set should be solid enough and give a good overview of Mega-City and all of it’s occupants.

The format for those Mongoose 32 page adventure books and supplements was a good one. One of those could contain a collection of numerous Incidents to tickle your players with, or the same sized book could contain a single Investigation.

A larger book could contain an Epic campaign in which start small and innocuous and built to climactic and potentially apocalyptic events unless the Judges can triumph.

Any extra features that do appear in Incidents, Investigations and Epic books should eventually be collected in companion books for easy access. Player’s should not be expected to buy everything just to have the game rules. Make these books good enough and they’ll be yours through genuine loyalty to the game.

All supplements should ideally come with all the card heroes and plans you need.

Lastly
We hope you can take something from this summary of the ideas we’ve come up while working on our ideal Dredd game. We would be happy to develop these ideas for your game if you’re interested, but feel free to use anything we’ve come up with so far. Either way, good luck and we look forward to seeing the finished game!

Paul Scott & Leigh Shepherd
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Postby xeoran » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:18 pm

Nice summary.

On the game contents etc. I think a CD loaded with print-out models is best*. Yes its expensive but there is no way you could fit all the crazy of MC1 or even enough of it, into one game. I'd almost prefer to see Tannhauser style limited number of excellent quality models rounded out with print out or perhaps a riff off Pulp City and the Citizen Tokens ( http://arcaneminiatures.co.uk/pulp-city.asp ) and lots of those.

*Also if rather than using CG models or anything you just had the appropriate picture from one of the comics you could save time, add character and so on.
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Postby Judge Xombe » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:01 am

I love Steeldragon's themed box set idea. A stand-alone game that works with each of the other stand-alones. Keeping the basics of the skirmish system as-is.

I third (fouth?) the idea of including worldworks terrain, a CD, or even offering a download-able file. (or a combination of the three). The folks behind Rezolution contracted Worldworks terrain. I use some of the WW stuff now, but mega-city one really cries for it's own unique terrain.
I prefer gridded systems. 1" grid being a preference. The old Games Workshop Dredd RPG tiles come to mind. The nice thing with WW is they usually offer the terrain tiles gridded on non.

I may be alone here, but I would love to see pre-painted Judges. I can understand that the gangers need to be unique - but they could even be pre-painted but re-paintable for those of us with more limited hobby time.
I don't mind plastic but I don't want to have to assemble them.

=========

As an alternate idea to a pure skirmish game, I would love to see a boxed "board game" with contents like, modular square tiles and counters to build the board and perhaps even various decks of cards (maybe describing sectors with crimes, power-ups, weapons, or events). This would perhaps be more of the Space-Hulk thing that others are speaking about.

I'd still want pre-painted or paintable minis though. These cards and board tiles could be mixed from each expansion or used stand-alone. In this kind of system, each battle would be more of a one-off thing, instead of the necromunda-style experience gaining.

steeldragon wrote: I will be more interested in a self contained game with two sides all packaged in a box, not like a boardgame, there are plenty of those, but with cool Judges against something in a real table or a printed map (with no squares, thank you very much). Let's say the game is called Mega City 1: Riot Control. Hordes of citizens that are generating civil unrest in the streets against Judges. Give me 8-10 scenarios campaign with a slightly different taste, and that will provide great value. A game I can actually play several times, cool minis, I don't need to plan additional purchases, wait for releases that might never come or min/max army lists. Scenarios might include "Pinpoint the Leaders", "Thou shall not Pass", "Break the Lines", etc.
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Postby MongooseMatt » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:17 am

Hi guys,

Cheers for your comments - there will be a Planet Mongoose about this today (hopefully!).
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Postby btom » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:29 am

Just read the Planet Mongoose post.

Not sure I like the sound of it to be honest, as it sounds very much like a simple battle system with a campaign tacked on as an after thought.

As Matt has made it sound, the primary driver seems to be to give the player as many options in scenarios/ miniatures possible which IS a good thing in a way. However, as many have said MC1 is such a rich setting that it would be able to support a more structured campaign and personally I think a system where the campaign is the predominant focus would keep people more interested.

Giving players carte blanche to recruit what they want without having to meet campaign parameters IMHO makes it a just collectible miniatures game.

Don't mean to sound too negative, just very interested in seeing this get delivered.
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Postby xeoran » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:48 pm

Rather meh about the Planet Mongoose too. Sounds interesting but rather generic.

I've been playing the Rebellion Judge Dread game and rather like that. It contains Arcade (one off themed battles) and Campaign (in which you deliver justice whilst trying to stop the Death Judges).

Arcade allows fun skirmishes (i.e. Riot with Riot Judges vs. Citizens, Zombies with Psi Judges against Zombies and so on). That could pretty easily be re-jigged to also allow the open ended campaigns in the PM post as well. Then you also have a meta campaign for players to follow (in which they take the role either of the Death Cultists or Judges). The Arcade games would be fairly easy to adapt to 2-player with one taking the role of a Demagogue (Riot) or Mad Scientist (Zombies) and the other of a Judge. That way you have the capability for easy games but a structured campaign as the backbone which would allow for all the colour we'd expect.
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Postby HyperBunnyFreakOut » Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:06 am

I read the "planet mongoose" and really like the sound of it. I am more interested in the gangs myself but my buddy wants to be judges, so this sounds perfect to me!
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Postby usagi3 » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:43 am

Just read it too... Sounds good. Please include as much factions of the original GoMS-1 as you can in the basic set (say, Judges, Apes, Gangs, Undercity Gangs, Robots, City Def...), so the old timers with models from the past can actually choose from a vast array of options !

The vehicle part got me excited. That was really lacking from GoMC-1.

If you include a battle mat, please design it so that several mats can be put together. If you include scenery, please use a heavier paper !

What about the models included ? Plastic ones, I guess ? It would be great if you could include some Gangers and a few Judges.
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Postby soulman » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:46 am

Pleased they are remaking this game, i like the simple rules, but found the too simple traits to expand sometimes, so i`m pleased about a new damage system etc, and i would like a shooting / melee skill then just AGl myself...

Also like to use the know system, for a modern day gang warfare " Death wish 3 " or maybe 1920 gangsters...

As for cused earth, thats great, maybe a mod for Sto.dog, or ince we have tanks what about Rogue trooper...?

So looking forward to knowing more when the time comes
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Postby Dobey Kweeg » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:01 am

Sounds a bit too much like Gangs for my tastes. Many of the problems with Gangs would appear to remain, though its possible that Mongoose have other solutions.

For my money, I don't have the time or resources to build a play area big enough to satisfy the essential "Megness" required for a Dredd game.

Dredd isnt so much about fighting so much as it is about pursuit. Gangs really shouldnt stand a chance against the Judges in out and out combat, unless you seriously restrict the number of Judges.

Gangs is a good simple fast moving combat system, but Dredd needs more than just a combat system with MC1 painted over the statistics. Thats not to say you dont have more planned, but the planet mongoose comments just seem to suggest a "bigger, better" gangs with more bells and whistles.

What I'd like to see is a distinct "game", as with Space Hulk, that you can play as a satisfying one off with all the pieces provided - something that has a tactical pursuit angle, and not just a rather undreddy "stand and fight" game - after all, most criminals arent suicidal - they arent at war with the Judges, so much as out for their own ends.

crucially I want it to feature citizens and the Megs craziness, not just a bunch of guns blazing at each other from across the table.

Gangs is great for war gamers with the will to invest in it, who want to have vaguely sci-fi/Dredd themed version of other games but I think that is drastically reducing the audience when compared to the audience that would want a Dredd 'miniatures' game that required a lot less of your own input to make it playable and a lot more of the unique flavour that makes Dredd such a great character and setting.
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Postby SnowDog » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:00 am

Good news, then :)

Personally I never had a chance to play this game but a new version would be nice.

I would prefer terrain tiles as I don't have much storage room. Maybe some sort of paper buildings that can be assembled/deassembled when needed. I have to agree with pre-paints but I can also see the problem with gangs that should have their own "colours".

I have been a bit out of the loop with Dredd in recent years but I have understood that MC-1 have faced many disasters that has left parts of the city more or less in ruins. Even Justice Dept doesn't have the resources they used to have.

Because of this I could very well see how tac teams of Judges are comparatively small even if they still are tough ones. Maybe the sector house (and thus the player) has a raise in budget the better he performs. The same applies to gangs. They get more money and more people. I really liked the idea that organizations could grow.

Another thing is that please, keep it as a skirmish game. Give each character more stats than there are in BFE and device a experience system so the characters can get better. As an additional benefit I would see this as a step towards spec ops version of BFE.
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Postby xeoran » Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:09 pm

The point about Dredd being about pursuit is spot on.
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