Gaim in P&P

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Kosh127
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Gaim in P&P

Postby Kosh127 » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:23 pm

Ok so this is going to IMO cause a ball of fire but here we go. I my club with have about 13-15 players. 2 play Gaim and before the change on lost 1 game ever. That was because of the VP conditions. So we all including the Gaim players decide to not play them until they got the help they needed IE a big black marker. We were are happy when the changes came in and then were somewhat disappointed as far as our group goes perhaps they got a little to much. Thanks god the Sk Queen got the knife I mean dear god that thing was crazy. The 1D for there troops was very very good and the breaching pods with a reduced range was a must. The Gunship is now a respectable Sk ship. its not amazing and not useless all and all its right were most ships of that rating are at. The reductions fleet wide of there fighters and pods makes the Gaim players uses there fights smarter and how they read in there background. The problem we are having is that with the carrier not having fleet carrier??? I understand that they want the Gaim players to take bigger ships but that in it self is a major problem. As an average 5 raid game you’re getting a battle ship that can do anything up close, and for the price in such a small/average game you’re going to be in the whole pretty outnumbered. Add the fact that the ship can't fight up close (it should have a forward beam or something) makes this ship a really hard choice. As for the the Assault ship why o why did the hull get dropped to 5??? That’s a major workhorse that it was, before way to much of the problem was because of the pods how fast they moved the the 2D take the highest for assaults. The ship itself was not to bad. The war ship is a totally awesome ship that is great in big games but is not likely to see most engagements. All in all the ideas behind the cuts and the reworking a couple of ships was great. I just think that since they obviously did not care about the fleet being unbeatable(strong wording) before and after they were banner from tourments and people when crazy they may have cut a little to much. So any idea if they will add a little back with the printing of P&P>>

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Postby silashand » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:04 pm

Why? I don't see them needing a FC at that level since all the queen ships have Carrier and at pretty decent levels at that. The only thing the FC would really do for you is give you the chance to recover your fighters and realistically, you have so many of them it's not really an issue I think. If The Gaim were given FC at a lower level I think it would discourage people from taking the big queens at all since they realistically wouldn't be needed. JMO though.

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Postby Greg Smith » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:05 pm

The only changes you will see in P&P are a couple of clarifications on Klikkitaks and the return of the missing flight computer to the Shruuta.

Why did the assault ship lose hull 6? Even without 10 flights, it is a good ship. There aren't many raid ships that sport 10 AD of double damage beams. It is a great ship for getting in the middle of the enemy formation and blasting away with all 4 arcs.
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Postby silashand » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:11 pm

Greg Smith wrote:It is a great ship for getting in the middle of the enemy formation and blasting away with all 4 arcs.
And my opinion on that is that is the *exact* reason why it should have retained hull 6. Hull 5 for such a vessel is IMO pretty stupid all around. JMO though.

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Postby Methos5000 » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:13 pm

silashand wrote:
Greg Smith wrote:It is a great ship for getting in the middle of the enemy formation and blasting away with all 4 arcs.
And my opinion on that is that is the *exact* reason why it should have retained hull 6. Hull 5 for such a vessel is IMO pretty stupid all around. JMO though.

Cheers, Gary
So we should give the Nova hull 6 then too?
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Postby Greg Smith » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:23 pm

Exactly, with hull 5 it compares favourably with the Bimith and Nova.
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Postby silashand » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:43 pm

Greg Smith wrote:Exactly, with hull 5 it compares favourably with the Bimith and Nova.
The Bimith has shields (meaning it can ignore not only hits, but potential crits as well) and both it and the Nova have more attack dice in all directions. For the Nova, with AP it's pretty much better all around than beams against most opponents unless you get a lucky run. Personally, having to rely on luck to beat out such opponents is IMO wrong.

Sorry, but your comparisons don't actually work. The assault ship's only advantage is its slightly higher speed (vs the nova) and its troops which it cannot actually use with the boarding special action unless your opponent is an idiot and doesn't move his ships, or you get lucky. The pods work, but are slow now (appropriately so) and are launched in the end phase, giving your opponent ample time to deal with them.

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Postby Kosh127 » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:58 pm

FC for is something they are going to only have at the expense of more ships, A FC at battle and War is good and all but it is expensive in a 5 raid game. As I see it the beam on the assualt ship is nice but don't lump them up in a all go all the time. Its comparable but on AVERAGE it will do less hits 4 beam out the front with hit3-4 hits on AVERAGE. with a great chance of 1 bulkhead and 1 crit. Thats ok and all but for the fleet and what it is there for its not all that great. As of the nature of the beam it is great or terrible. It should retain its hull six because its one of the few ships to be able to fight up close and protect your support ships (most of the fleet) for long enough to let your fighters do what they can. As for having enought fighters its up in the air on that one. they are still very heavy in teh fighter count but they are very very weak and no much compatition for Vree, Min, Earth, Pak, Dilgar, and a couple of theres. and not having a FC at raid level be it on the Queen or the Carrier is a little hard on a fleet that, FIGHTERS are a Weopen, A MAIN WEOPEN. When you look at how many fighters they have you MUST take they into acount as they are more to this fleet than any other.
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Postby Methos5000 » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:25 am

silashand wrote:
Greg Smith wrote:Exactly, with hull 5 it compares favourably with the Bimith and Nova.
The Bimith has shields (meaning it can ignore not only hits, but potential crits as well) and both it and the Nova have more attack dice in all directions. For the Nova, with AP it's pretty much better all around than beams against most opponents unless you get a lucky run. Personally, having to rely on luck to beat out such opponents is IMO wrong.

Sorry, but your comparisons don't actually work. The assault ship's only advantage is its slightly higher speed (vs the nova) and its troops which it cannot actually use with the boarding special action unless your opponent is an idiot and doesn't move his ships, or you get lucky. The pods work, but are slow now (appropriately so) and are launched in the end phase, giving your opponent ample time to deal with them.

Cheers, Gary
As for Nova comparisons:
the Gaim Assualt ship also has more damage and crew with lower thresholds, has AF dice, isn't lumbering and while the use of troops are limited to certain situations it does carry 8X the troops.

If you don't like the Nova comparison then lets use EA assault ship the Tantalus as it would fill a similar roll in the fleet.
Speed: adv Gaim 8 vs 6
Turns: same
Hull: same
Damage: adv Tantalus +7 but threshold is +3 higher, effective damage is +4 over Gaim ship
Crew: effectively equal, Tantlus as 2 more crew but threshold is 2 higher also
AF: adv Gaim 6 vs 2
Int: equal
Shuttles: adv Gaim 8 vs 4
Troops: adv Gaim 16 vs 12
Remaining specials: adv Gaim they gain Carrier vs Tantalus Lumbering
Craft: Fighters: adv Tantalus has same number of fighter but their fighters are better
Craft: Breaching Pods: adv Gaim ship has 8 Breaching Pods vs 2 for the Tantalus.
Weapons:
Front arc:
adv Gaim 4AD 12" B DD vs 4AD 12" TL
P/S arc: adv depends largely on opponents, Hull 6 or Int adv Gaim, Hull 4 with no Int adv Tantalus
aft arc: adv Gaim 2AD 12" B DD vs 4AD 10" TL

So for compairing 2 assault ships at the same level with similar roles I would say the Gaim Skrunnka is hands down a better ship, how will giving it hull 6 change that?

Now if your of the opinion that the Tantalus is weak thats fine, however it would need major upgrades to come even close to the capabilities of the Skrunnka and giving the Skrunnka hull 6 just widens that gap even more.
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Postby Foxmeister » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:06 am

It compares pretty well to the T'Loth too, even though the T"loth has way more HPs and crew.

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Postby H » Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:10 am

hmm, right then, can the narn assault ship with it's hull 5 get 10 diceworth of beam? can we also get ANY fleet carrier? Thanks.
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Postby McKickaha » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:33 pm

Hiffano - Funny you should say that about a Narn fleet carrier, scratchbuilding one right now.
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Postby H » Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:37 pm

I have stats for a supercarrier using a Bin'Tak hull :-)

but whatever it is, stick some picks up, always nice to see peoples work :-)
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Postby McKickaha » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:20 pm

Hiffano - Sure will show the supercarrier model when its ready. Ship is almost finished but I like to paint them before I put them up on the forum. This baby is a real monster and will take some time to paint. Think Adira size but with much more style.

Very interested in your stats however, how can I get hold of them

(And by the way my apologies for hi-jacking the thread).
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Postby MongooseMatt » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:39 pm

hiffano wrote:hmm, right then, can the narn assault ship with it's hull 5 get 10 diceworth of beam? can we also get ANY fleet carrier? Thanks.
No. You are Narn. You don't deserve one.
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Postby Davesaint » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:49 pm

msprange wrote:
hiffano wrote:hmm, right then, can the narn assault ship with it's hull 5 get 10 diceworth of beam? can we also get ANY fleet carrier? Thanks.
No. You are Narn. You don't deserve one.
Why don't the Narn deserve a Fleet Carrier?


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Postby Davesaint » Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:51 pm

silashand wrote:
Greg Smith wrote:Exactly, with hull 5 it compares favourably with the Bimith and Nova.
The Bimith has shields (meaning it can ignore not only hits, but potential crits as well) and both it and the Nova have more attack dice in all directions. For the Nova, with AP it's pretty much better all around than beams against most opponents unless you get a lucky run. Personally, having to rely on luck to beat out such opponents is IMO wrong.

Sorry, but your comparisons don't actually work. The assault ship's only advantage is its slightly higher speed (vs the nova) and its troops which it cannot actually use with the boarding special action unless your opponent is an idiot and doesn't move his ships, or you get lucky. The pods work, but are slow now (appropriately so) and are launched in the end phase, giving your opponent ample time to deal with them.

Cheers, Gary
If you roll up on the beams, it is much more useful than AP weapons. Plus the beams ignore hull 6 and interceptors, so what's the big deal?


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Postby Da Boss » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:02 pm

Davesaint wrote:
msprange wrote:
hiffano wrote:hmm, right then, can the narn assault ship with it's hull 5 get 10 diceworth of beam? can we also get ANY fleet carrier? Thanks.
No. You are Narn. You don't deserve one.
Why don't the Narn deserve a Fleet Carrier?


Dave
I'm hoping its a Joke :)

I see no reason why any fleet can not have any option as long as the ship is characterful of that race - ie Scouts - most races have one - and they are all very different from the Stak to the Delphi through to the Lesahth and the Corvan.

Hiff designed a very Narn Fleet carrier - as it should be - not a Posiedon or a Cidikar bt a Narn fleet carrier - actually carrying few fighters and packing plenty of guns!

Now it has also been mentioned before that the Pak should never have a Scout - but no reasons why - it seems somewhat arbitary (which is of course allowable to the designer :wink: ) asto my mind the pak ar equite liikely to build ships to look for stuff - it may be a big lumbering monsterosity full of pak and with relitvely basic sensors and a big hold to keep the stuff in or a more subtle conversion of a Drazi / Brakiri hull with few weapons and good sensors.

I though that from the fleet book they the ones that are everywhere and that little escape their grasp as the move about the galaxy?
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Postby Foxmeister » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:16 pm

msprange wrote: No. You are Narn. You don't deserve one.
Is this the new mantra for the Narn?

Q. Can we get a G'Quan that is actually worth taking and representative of what we see in the show?
A. No. You are Narn. You don't deserve one.

:roll:

Regards,

Dave
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Postby CZuschlag » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:19 pm

The gaps in various fleets are a game designer's perogative, not ours.

Our perogative is balance. If the Narn cannot be balanced without a Fleet Carrier or a T'Loth with 12 dice of beam, then it becomes our perogative.
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