Gaim in P&P

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Postby Methos5000 » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:26 am

Da Boss wrote:yeah I know its in the book but I was looking at the playtest document :? Unless I have the wrong one - anyone else able to check?

thanks
:shock: Your right it is back to hull 6. Okay so that and their number 4 refit need to be fixed. No AoE weapon should be SAP AND Quad Damage especially with no loss of AD to the weapon system that gets that upgrade. It either needs to be a Unique upgrade (like the #4 refits for the Brakiri/Drazi/pak'ma'ra) or it needs to at least drop to Triple Damage instead. I don't know of any other upgrade in the game that lets you skip a whole damage multiplier.
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Postby stepan.razin » Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:12 am

skavendan wrote:Its faster than your average raid ship hull 6 interceptors full of breaching pods. You would have to be stupid to willing go without 12"
Just curious, what average Raid ship are you comparing it to? are we talking about the same ship? sarcasm perhaps?

Speed 8" - is that really faster then average?
1/45 Turn - is that more agile then average?
12 " Beam... 4AD DD Front Arch, 12" Beam 2AD DD rest... what Raid level ship does that outgun? I know patrol levels with more firepower.
2 Interceptors on the raid level ship is over the top?
6 Breaching pods ???

Yeah, a game breaker....
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Postby silashand » Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:56 am

CZuschlag wrote:At Hull 6, this ship is out of bounds and needs to be corrected, FAST.
Not. Suffice to say I disagree entirely, but then you already know that ;-).
katadder wrote:well its not, they are only 12" range and 2AD in those arcs. average hit is 2, so average 4 damage. I am sure a nova can manage that in its arcs, and a teshlan manages 3 average with mini-beams.
My point exactly. People keep claiming 10AD of beams is something amazing, but when you only have 12" range and 2AD in any one arc except front I think it's a bit of a red herring. Average 1.5 hits, thus either 2 or 4pts damage from any one arc. Sorry, but that really isn't all that great IMO, and I use the assault ship quite a bit in my Gaim fleet. The Nova has considerably better firepower in *all* arcs, particularly to the side where you would expect an assault ship to have it. You folks really seem to be overrating it IYAM. Sure, with all the breaching pods it had before it was way too nasty, but now? Hardly. Other than 2" more speed it is clearly the inferior choice between the comparisons listed so far.
stepan.razin wrote:Just curious, what average Raid ship are you comparing it to? are we talking about the same ship? sarcasm perhaps?

Speed 8" - is that really faster then average?
1/45 Turn - is that more agile then average?
12 " Beam... 4AD DD Front Arch, 12" Beam 2AD DD rest... what Raid level ship does that outgun? I know patrol levels with more firepower.
2 Interceptors on the raid level ship is over the top?
6 Breaching pods ???

Yeah, a game breaker....
My points exactly. I think folks just don't like it because of the pods from the initial list which combined with the better troops was just plain OTT. Once those got nerfed, the rest of the ship was pretty much fine as is. I mean really, it lost 6 pods and 1 klikitta, the pods got slower, AAF dropped to AF, FC gone, carrier dropped from 6 to 3, troop effectiveness went down to the same as everyone else *and* they dropped it from hull 6 to hull 5? Sorry, somewhere along the way I think people got a little overzealous beating the proverbial dead horse IYAM. As I said, I use the assault ship a lot in my Gaim fleet and it's current iteration is hardly overpowered on a good day. Yes, it needed the nerf bat, but not that hard.

Cheers, Gary
Last edited by silashand on Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:54 am, edited 7 times in total.
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noobdelux
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Postby noobdelux » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:20 am

i thought the only revised list was in an s&p edition? where else have you seen changes?
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Postby silashand » Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:31 am

The playtest rules posted in the sticky near the top of this forum ;-). They are the latest draft for what's eventually supposed to end up in the Powers & Principalities expansion.

Link is here: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB ... hp?t=36703

Cheers, Gary
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Postby Da Boss » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:21 am

stepan.razin wrote:
skavendan wrote:Its faster than your average raid ship hull 6 interceptors full of breaching pods. You would have to be stupid to willing go without 12"
Just curious, what average Raid ship are you comparing it to? are we talking about the same ship? sarcasm perhaps?

Speed 8" - is that really faster then average?
1/45 Turn - is that more agile then average?
12 " Beam... 4AD DD Front Arch, 12" Beam 2AD DD rest... what Raid level ship does that outgun? I know patrol levels with more firepower.
2 Interceptors on the raid level ship is over the top?
6 Breaching pods ???

Yeah, a game breaker....
love to see which Patrol ship you mean - the largest total AD of beams at skirmish are only 4AD IIRC.

Its not lumbering.

It has both interceptors and 6 AF - why does it need hull 6 - if its designed to get in close it has interceptors - if its worried about beams / mini-beams - well hull 5 or 6 - makes no difference.

it has 8 breeching pods and 2 fighters plus 16 troops (so it can threaten in the same way as a T'loth)

Near battle level crew score

its fine at Hull 5............
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Postby noobdelux » Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:26 pm

ok my bad then
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Postby Ripple » Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:57 pm

Some of the comparisons being made are strange to me.

Nova can put out more damage against a ship with hull 5 and no interceptors I guess... but but not as likely to roll up as a beam, and certainly weaker against a hull six ship than a 2 AD DD/beam. We'll ignore that you have a heavy front arc... always more important than the sides.

And while it has four flights, the Gaim ship clearly out classes it in launched ship potential given the chance of outright capture with that many breaching pods. (remember, boresighted ships can to come right at you to fire... those shorter ranged ships often can't avoid both the pods and the SA 'launch breaching pods and shuttles' at the same time.)

Ripple
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Postby stepan.razin » Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:53 pm

Da Boss wrote:
stepan.razin wrote:
skavendan wrote:Its faster than your average raid ship hull 6 interceptors full of breaching pods. You would have to be stupid to willing go without 12"
Just curious, what average Raid ship are you comparing it to? are we talking about the same ship? sarcasm perhaps?

Speed 8" - is that really faster then average?
1/45 Turn - is that more agile then average?
12 " Beam... 4AD DD Front Arch, 12" Beam 2AD DD rest... what Raid level ship does that outgun? I know patrol levels with more firepower.
2 Interceptors on the raid level ship is over the top?
6 Breaching pods ???

Yeah, a game breaker....
love to see which Patrol ship you mean - the largest total AD of beams at skirmish are only 4AD IIRC.

Its not lumbering.

It has both interceptors and 6 AF - why does it need hull 6 - if its designed to get in close it has interceptors - if its worried about beams / mini-beams - well hull 5 or 6 - makes no difference.

it has 8 breeching pods and 2 fighters plus 16 troops (so it can threaten in the same way as a T'loth)

Near battle level crew score

its fine at Hull 5............
Try a Vree patrol choice., a blue star is not far behind. Or are you saying that only another beam armed ship may be compared? If so,why?

That ship needs hull 6.
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Postby Da Boss » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:31 pm

OK Vree Patrol ship

15" range 4 AD DD SAP, interceptable damage on a ship with 8 damage

Blue Star 8" range 4AD DD, AP Interceptable

not beam and can't roll up,

Gaim beam (in all arcs) ignores hull level and interceptors - has 10 dice beam in total.........

As I said why does it need hull 6 as it has good damage and crew, and 2 dice interceptors / 6 dice AF against normal guns and hull 6 does not matter against beams / mini-beams
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Postby silashand » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:58 pm

Da Boss wrote:Gaim beam (in all arcs) ignores hull level and interceptors - has 10 dice beam in total.........
As I said before, the 10AD beam argument is a red herring because the odds of being able to use all of them at any one time is pretty much nil, and the damage they can generate in *each* arc (i.e. against a single target) is almost negligible, i.e. average 2-4 damage points each in P/S/A. Using this as justification for it being somehow "strong" is ridiculous. Even in the front arc, the *very* short 12" range means even at APTE it will take a beating before it gets to use them. At SPD: 8" it certainly isn't *that* fast.

Sorry, but those arguments simply don't hold water under scrutiny. The Nova you were comparing it to earlier can dish out considerably more damage in all arcs at the same range against most opponents.

Cheers, Gary
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Postby Ripple » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:51 am

Actually your doing your math wrong... it's 2 to 4 hits in each arc, and two arcs is pretty easy to arrange in most fights.

Given these are double damage beams, that's 4 to 8 damage points per arc with a DD crit out of one of the two your likely to be able to arrange. (Six hits netting you one likely crit for the turn.)

And you keep skipping over the fact that it is BEAM, so it retains its value as your opponents go up in PL, where hull 5/interceptors or hull 6 becomes the norm.

The twin linked nova averages nothing against a hull 6 with interceptors ship (well let's see... 4ish hits on average, of which int 2 stops the first 3ish out of the first six hits... so maybe 1?), against hull 5 with ints it's 8 hits but stop 4ish before rolls for crits so still up in the air whether you get one... and that's the 14 die broadside. Front you get nothing and 1 hit through vs hull 5. Net is you are doing 1 point to a hull 6 with int ship and 5ish plus a crit against hull 5 w/ int ships... seems to me the Gaim ship is doing better for damage... especially against things above it's PL.

Both ships are going to get hammered by a Battle/War hull if your inside its secondaries... but that is what happens to raid ships against the big boys.

At least your better off than the Bimith... which will never ever be beyond anyone's secondaries, and you have a secondary attack with your breaching pods and flights.

And while speed 8 is not 'that' fast... it's also not slow like the Nova at 6. You can APtE on turn one... and expect to fire on turn two. Lunge for Gaim here is 24 inches, with your best arc facing the lunge... as opposed to the Nova... 21 inches, with you best arcs falling shorter cause they are at the sides. Or say the Bimith... 20 inches, best arc sideways.

The ship in no way NEEDS hull 6... sure it may make sense to build that way... but then you have to start bumping up in level to put it where hull 6 is the norm not the exception. Given the way escort works why is there a single escort in the game that doesn't carry flights of fighters to act as range extenders? Mechanics and fluff are often a bit at odds... in this case its tough for a ship its size and mission profile...

Ripple
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Postby stepan.razin » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:29 am

Da Boss wrote:OK Vree Patrol ship

15" range 4 AD DD SAP, interceptable damage on a ship with 8 damage

Blue Star 8" range 4AD DD, AP Interceptable

not beam and can't roll up,

Gaim beam (in all arcs) ignores hull level and interceptors - has 10 dice beam in total.........

As I said why does it need hull 6 as it has good damage and crew, and 2 dice interceptors / 6 dice AF against normal guns and hull 6 does not matter against beams / mini-beams
Dude, its a PATROL choice! Duh!!!!!
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Postby silashand » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:44 am

Ripple wrote:Actually your doing your math wrong... it's 2 to 4 hits in each arc
Wrong. Average hitting on a 4+ with 2 dice is 1.5 hits per arc given a subsequent roll for the first hit. Probability theory dictates that the odds are you will get 1 hit on the first and have a 50/50 chance that the second roll will also hit. Probability of the third hit occurring is only 25% and the chances of further hits goes down exponentially after that. Given this you are looking at a probable 1-2 hits per arc with only a 25% chance of 3 hits which is unreliable. As I said, that's 2-4 damage points *on average*. Sorry, but that's poor by any standard for a Raid level ship. Sure, a lucky run may boost it, but luck is not something to base a ship's capabilities on since any ship with a beam can do that.

In case you're wondering, the actual probability math for a 2 dice beam hitting on a 4+ is as follows:

A 6 sided die will produce 2 events (1-3, 4-6). Thus the chance any one roll will be a 4+ is the number of events that satisfy the condition / total number of events, ergo 1/2 or 50%. The chance that a second roll of the same die is equal to the probability of the first roll multiplied by the probability of the second roll, i.e. 1/2 * 1/2, or 25%. The formula for subsequent rolls is 1/2^n where n = the number of times the die is rolled.

Thus we have:

1st roll: 1/2 + (1/2 * 1/2) = 75% chance that either one will go forward.
1st roll: 1/2 * 1/2 = 25% chance that neither will go forward.
1st roll: 1/2 * 1/2 = 25% chance that both will go forward.

...assume 1 die goes forward (scores a hit) since that is the majority result from rolling 2 dice:

2nd roll: 1/2 = 50% chance it will go forward.

3rd roll: 1/2 * 1/2 = 25% chance it will go forward.

4th roll: 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 12.5% chance it will go forward.

etc.

No offense, but beam dice are simply not as good as people think they are.

As to arranging two arcs, so what? Unless you are exceptionally lucky you will be splitting those arcs between two ships. Again, with only 12" range and 2-4 hits per ship, that's pretty pathetic IYAM.

Cheers, Gary
Last edited by silashand on Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby CZuschlag » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:40 am

Forget all of that. The impacts of two of those things doropping off all those breaching pods against, say, Drakh, or pak'ma'ra (the lumbering Urik'hal is just dead and capture meat), is ridiculous. Breaching pods on their own aren't threatening -- you can do something about them, and at
Speed 6, you should only be threatened by them if you're attacking a bunker, or are stupid. Attaching the turn immediately following launch (especially against lumbering ships) is extremely powerful, especially if there are no enemy dogfighters to kill the Breaching Pods off (photon bombs). The thing barely needs any serious firepower!

Do this, and we'll get the Gaim back to where they should be again --- banned .... guaranteed.
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Postby silashand » Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:50 am

CZuschlag wrote:Forget all of that. The impacts of two of those things doropping off all those breaching pods against, say, Drakh, or pak'ma'ra (the lumbering Urik'hal is just dead and capture meat), is ridiculous. Breching pods on their own aren't threatening -- you can do something about them. Attaching the turn immediately following launch (especially against lumbering ships) is extremely powerful. The thing barely needs any serious firepower!

Do this, and we'll get the Gaim back to where they should be again --- banned .... guaranteed.
I was pointing out that the argument for his claim was flawed.

As for the pods, your argument doesn't hold water either. First, they are launched in the end phase, thus giving ships a chance to manouver away. With only a 6" move even slow lumbering ships can usually get out of range if they choose for at least a turn which gives other ships the chance to shoot them. Plus, most ships that slow have at least *some* anti-fighter capability and those that don't are usually fast enough to get away. As for the Drakh, all but their largest ships are easily capable of zipping around and ignoring the pods until they decide to shoot them, if they even do.

Second, with the change in the Gaim troops, they are no better than anyone else's now which means they can be killed once they are on board and won't simply keep rampaging through your ships like they did before. The sole reason the Assault Ship was broken in the previous edition was really the assault troops combined with the pods and they both have been *significantly* toned down. I've played with the new list and it's not nearly as abusive. In fact, barring the fact that people just plain hate emines it is quite balanced all things considered.

And claiming that the Pakkies are vulnerable is just plain ridiculous. Their plasma web ability will make a mockery of any fighter craft, including and especially the slow breaching pods.

Sorry to tell you, but your argument is just as flawed as Ripple's is about the beams.

Cheers, Gary

PS. FYI, your statement of "getting the Gaim back where they should be again" very clearly highlights your bias against them. While you are certainly entitled to hate whatever you want to, if you're going to argue against something about them, you really do need better arguments ;-).
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Postby CZuschlag » Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:08 am

Bullship.

A Lumbering Urik'hal only has a locus of a set of points in a line 9" long in which he can place his ship. So, when faced with a charging Skrunnka under Scramble, Scramble, what do you do?

-->........10".........<--
pak'...................gaim

In this situation, the Urik'hal is just dead.

End Turn 1: Gaim deploys 5 breaching pods up to 7" away from pak' Urik'hal.
Start Turn 2: Gaim wins initiative (extremely likely).
pak moves during turn 2: Here's the trick. The pak' ship can't park and stay away from the Breaching Pods, because if you do, you become vulnerable to Launch Shuttles and Breaching Pods. This is worse, as the Gaim can put any number of troops on your ship without any Antifighter, instead of being restricted to the five under Scramble. You drive right on in (your best tactic may be trying to ram a Pod under the new ramming rules!).
Gaim fighter move: Gaim use initiative to move fighters first. Breaching pods attach at this point and dispense their troops. Note that any pak fighters cannot do so, as they will move second and be too late.

The pak should get 3 rampaging marines on the pak ship after the one pak marine is dead. Given that a single marine, should, on average, account for 16.1 dead crew, and that a captured ship is worth an additional 100% instead of a dead one, that Urik'hal is going to put a huge amount of VP's in your wallet. And it's dead easy to do.

Heck, I didn't even use the extra 3" of range that you can use when you deploy your breaching pods --- you have a 9" strike radius at a +3 or more initiative, with Klittikas to act as intereceptors to any enemy fighters that do make it!

This just gets worse, of course, for the larger pak vessels.

Gross. From the above position, there's no escape for the Urik'hal, and that's a common position for a ship with 36+ damage, 50 crew, and interceptors 2 to get to! At Hull 6, I don't want to think about it.

Heck, under this scenario, I never had to fire a single gun, and the Skrunnka won!

And you want to upgrade it?

Fine. But if you do, I want the entire Carrier trait gone from the ship.

EDIT:

Forget about that. I don't even want that. The ship is enormous, is loaded with DD beams, and has interceptors. It is clearly superior to the Tantalus as-is (its closest match that I can see). I can find no justification for such an improvement.
Last edited by CZuschlag on Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby silashand » Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:13 am

I'll just quote you and say "bull". Your argument is just as much a red herring as the previous one since you are comparing apples to oranges. Ships are not balanced against one another. *Fleets* are balanced based on their capabilities. If you're going to use the example above you may as well say the White Star wins vs every other Raid level ship out there and "game over." Again, your argument is flawed since the Pak'Ma'Ra have plenty of ways to deal with the Gaim pods as a fleet. Saying they don't is just plain false. That's like saying an aircraft carrier will always lose to a battleship as long as you don't count the aircraft that go with it.

No offense, your claim that if they boost it you want something else gone is yet another indicator that your arguments are biased. If someone can produce a *supportable* argument for why the Assault Ship is so bad under the *current* rules and would be totally broken if returned to hull 6 I'll happily listen. So far though I've seen only theoryhammer claims and examples based on the previous list which was indeed broken. I have seen nothing, either here or in actual play with the new Gaim where that appears to be the case.

Cheers, Gary
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Postby CZuschlag » Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:27 am

When did they get a chance?

They don't have a fire opportunity, as the Breaching Pods hit the table in End Phase, and attach at movement.

The pak'ma'ra can't deploy fighters at the last second to act as interceptors --- they don't have any Carriers!

I don't see any pak'ma'ra escorts......well, there is the Halik, now. That should kill you .... one more breaching pod. Whee.

It's a free and easy capture!

The Tantalus is a weaker ship in every way, and isn't under assessment for an upgrade. However, somehow, the clearly superior Skrunnka is? Insane.

Look, we all have our blind spots. That's why I list what I fly below my signature. People can assess my particular stances with full knowledge of any ulterior motive or tactical blindness I may have. And that's fair. It's happened --- that's why I did it. The 1st Edition Targrath was broken. It took me several games to see it, but I did. Too bad it was slower than some of my opponents. We had another local player who was running the Whitestar wrong, and was complaining bitterly about losing the 3+ dodge. Then, after a while, he saw the light and we have him onboard the 4+ dodge/1-die of beam crowd. The story has gone on and on.

There's nothing wrong with that. But we do have to take into account that our opinions on our own fleets of expertise is often clouded by prejudice and our memories are fantasically selective.
Last edited by CZuschlag on Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby katadder » Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:31 am

why is the urik hal so close anyway? he wouldnt go in fast as he has range 25 TD missiles then range 15 heavy plasma cannon so gtes lots of shots off before the skruunka even gets into range. porfatis can also take down breaching pods.

it is a misconception that the assault ship has 10AD of beams as the most you can get against one target is 4 giving an average hits and 8 damageno matter the targets hull.
as we are also comparing a nova it gets more fighters, if they take down the klikkitaks then the breaching pods havent a chance.

edit: I am not for the skruunka getting hull 6 back, just pointing out some flaws in various arguments. as has been said a nova has no chance against a WS and neither does the skruunka really. whereas the urik hal has more chance here because of long range torps.
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