Playtest Rules clarifications needed thus far:

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Da Boss
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Playtest Rules clarifications needed thus far:

Postby Da Boss » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:31 pm

There are quite a few - thought it might be useful to list them as we go along - it might help if we just list them here and discuss them elsewhere so the PTB can look at reasonably easily and assess / inform us?

If I spot stuff on other threads I'll try and update:)

Brakiri

If I attack a ship with 2 Gravitc Shifters from the same ship, the Haltana, can I turn it 2/45's?

Shadows

A couple of points about merging.
1.The rule says "If two Shadow vessels of the same type (variants are permitted) are in base contact at the end of the Movement Phase, they may merge". Can a third join in by moving into contact with one of the two already merged, or is it limited to exactly two?
2. The speed of the merged pair is half that of one ship. However, they merge at the end of the movement phase, but can break apart at the beginning of the movement phase. Which means that if I read this correctly, this rule can be abused. Ship 1 makes its move; ship 2 moves up to it and merges. Next turn, ship 1 breaks off and moves at full speed, then ship 2 moves at full speed, ends its move next to ship 1, and merges again. I'd suggest either allowing the merged pair to move at the full speed of one ship, or add a restriction that a ship which has broken from a merge can't take part in a merge the same turn.

About the new anti-fighter mode for Shadow beams: the rule says "The weapon will have its Range halved and lose the Beam trait, along with any Double, Triple or Quad Damage traits". No mention is made of the Precise trait. Can we confirm that anti-fighter mode does retain Precise?

Actually, that's something else worth asking - if a Shadow ship takes a "No fire out of random arc" critical, do we now roll to see whether forward or turret arc was affected?

Space Stations
Has it been mentioned yet how this effects campaigns? I know the 3x cost is gone as is the 5 RR cost but what about the other things:
No adjustment to PL roll
Must show up in certain scenarios as certain PLs
Must be present at scenarios otherwise the Strategic target cannot be captured
Last edited by Da Boss on Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Silvereye » Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:49 pm

Space Stations:

Can a Shadow Station use hyperspace mastery to enter/exit a scenario?

Can a Centauri Station with a Traffic Protection Module (grants Escort) use the Guardian Array racial rules?
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Postby Da Boss » Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:49 pm

Centauri

Hunting Packs

Has it been determined if redirected attacks need to break stealth on the newly targeted ship? can you dodge them?

Also given the following wording:

"If any of the smaller ships is attacked by an enemy, the Centauri player may force his opponent to roll the attacks against the largest ship in the Hunting Pack, so long as it is within 6” of the original target, and remains in range and line of sight of the enemy."

If a emine hits a squadron - you could if you wished make the emine only hit the Primus say??
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Postby noobdelux » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:58 pm

[quote="Da Boss"]Centauri

Hunting Packs

Has it been determined if redirected attacks need to break stealth on the newly targeted ship? can you dodge them?

[quote]

i would say it depends on the wording. if it says the centauri player can rederict the targeting he have to roll stealth/dodge, but if it says that he can rederict hits he ignores stealth/dodge
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Postby skavendan » Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:06 pm

It cleared says (on what I downloaded) You get no additional stealth or dodge bonus if your moving to take a hit you take the hit just that. Interceptors I believe the only exception so you will opt to jump in the way with an interceptor ship.
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Postby H » Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:08 pm

Da Boss wrote:Centauri

Hunting Packs

Has it been determined if redirected attacks need to break stealth on the newly targeted ship? can you dodge them?

Also given the following wording:

"If any of the smaller ships is attacked by an enemy, the Centauri player may force his opponent to roll the attacks against the largest ship in the Hunting Pack, so long as it is within 6” of the original target, and remains in range and line of sight of the enemy."

If a emine hits a squadron - you could if you wished make the emine only hit the Primus say??
e-mines don't attack ships, they attack space :-) ships just happen to get in the way.
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Postby CZuschlag » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:20 am

Brakiri answer to multiple gravitic shifters:
The Brakiri Syndicracy
The following are official updates to the Brakiri Syndicracy fleet.

Gravitic Shifters
Brakiri captains have become adept at laying multiple Gravitic Shifter rays onto a single target, pulling it in one direction and then another, shaking its bulkheads apart in the process. For every Gravitic Shifter used against the same enemy ship in the same turn beyond the first, roll a dice. Automatically deduct this from the Damage and Crew of the enemy ship.
No, you may not shift a target a second time.
Last edited by CZuschlag on Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby CZuschlag » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:23 am

Centauri Hunting Packs:
If any of the smaller ships is attacked by an enemy, the Centauri player may force his opponent to roll the attacks against the largest ship in the Hunting Pack, so long as it is within 6” of the original target, and remains in range and line of sight of the enemy.
Yes, you may use the Dargan's stealth. (BUSTED!!! Yet another reason to totally bin the Hunting Pack idea and move to Da Boss's Gravitic Engines).
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Postby CZuschlag » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:27 am

Shadow "random arc" critical:

Just like the boresight expanding under TTT; you roll which arc by looking at the arcs on the ship stat line, and randomly selecting from them. You then apply the result to all the weapons so affected. So, yet, the random arc crit will still shut down all the fire of a given Shadow vessel.
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Postby nekomata fuyu » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:40 am

CZuschlag wrote:Brakiri answer to multiple gravitic shifters:
The Brakiri Syndicracy
The following are official updates to the Brakiri Syndicracy fleet.

Gravitic Shifters
Brakiri captains have become adept at laying multiple Gravitic Shifter rays onto a single target, pulling it in one direction and then another, shaking its bulkheads apart in the process. For every Gravitic Shifter used against the same enemy ship in the same turn beyond the first, roll a dice. Automatically deduct this from the Damage and Crew of the enemy ship.
No, you may not shift a target a second time.
Minor problem: it doesn't say that in the rule you've quoted. The rule should state if the damaging effect is on top of or instead of standard rules for G-Shifters. At the moment it technically reads that you get both effects.
CZuschlag wrote:Shadow "random arc" critical:

Just like the boresight expanding under TTT; you roll which arc by looking at the arcs on the ship stat line, and randomly selecting from them. You then apply the result to all the weapons so affected. So, yet, the random arc crit will still shut down all the fire of a given Shadow vessel.
Again, you're on pretty shaky ground. Say you get the "No firing out of one random arc" result. So, no firing out of the F arc (assuming that the Shadow wasn't firing in AF mode that turn). If the Shadow then fires in AF mode, it is no longer firing out of the F arc but out of the T arc, so nothing is stopping it from firing.
It's a dirty explotation of a loophole, but that's exactly the reason why something needs to be added to close it.
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Postby Methos5000 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:06 pm

nekomata fuyu wrote: Again, you're on pretty shaky ground. Say you get the "No firing out of one random arc" result. So, no firing out of the F arc (assuming that the Shadow wasn't firing in AF mode that turn). If the Shadow then fires in AF mode, it is no longer firing out of the F arc but out of the T arc, so nothing is stopping it from firing.
It's a dirty explotation of a loophole, but that's exactly the reason why something needs to be added to close it.
So what happens if it receives the random arc offline crit while it is firing in AF mode? The Jump Point Disruptor and Fighter Dispersal Tube are still on the Front arc while the Beam is currently a turret. If the Turret goes offline can it switch back to a front arc Beam(next turn of course)? If the Front arc goes offline will it be able to keep firing in turret mode or will it go offline because its actually a Front arc gun thats firing in a different mode?
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Postby skavendan » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:29 pm

I don't think it's so bad firing an anti fighter weapon at a ship isn't going to do a great deal.
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Postby Foxmeister » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:56 pm

Methos5000 wrote:If the Front arc goes offline will it be able to keep firing in turret mode or will it go offline because its actually a Front arc gun thats firing in a different mode?
In my opinion, commonsense should prevail here. The ship has one weapon system in one arc - the F arc. The fact that it can be "reconfigured" to fire in a different arc is immaterial - if it loses a random arc it loses its weapon system regardless of what "mode" it is in.

The same would apply to TTT - if you lose your boresight arc, you can't simply keep trying for TTT to gain F-arc and thus be able to fire.

Any other interpretation is just nonsense as far as I'm concerned. I agree it could be tightened up, but it shouldn't really need to be because we are all supposed to be reasonable people - if I were playing someone and they tried this on with me, I'd just stop playing immediately and tell them exactly what I thought of them (hint: rhymes with ducking banker! ;) ).

Regards,

Dave
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Postby skavendan » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:03 pm

Foxmeister wrote:
Methos5000 wrote:If the Front arc goes offline will it be able to keep firing in turret mode or will it go offline because its actually a Front arc gun thats firing in a different mode?
In my opinion, commonsense should prevail here. The ship has one weapon system in one arc - the F arc. The fact that it can be "reconfigured" to fire in a different arc is immaterial - if it loses a random arc it loses its weapon system regardless of what "mode" it is in.

The same would apply to TTT - if you lose your boresight arc, you can't simply keep trying for TTT to gain F-arc and thus be able to fire.

Any other interpretation is just nonsense as far as I'm concerned. I agree it could be tightened up, but it shouldn't really need to be because we are all supposed to be reasonable people - if I were playing someone and they tried this on with me, I'd just stop playing immediately and tell them exactly what I thought of them (hint: rhymes with ducking banker! ;) ).

Regards,

Dave
Reasonable people? While we all know this is indeed the fact min-maxs who play to win the Games Workshop style bad players apply the same logic to this game.

It is for that very reason that these things need to be clarified.
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Postby Foxmeister » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:19 pm

skavendan wrote: Reasonable people? While we all know this is indeed the fact min-maxs who play to win the Games Workshop style bad players apply the same logic to this game.
It's quite simple - don't play them. Problem solved.

In a game that is written in a "conversational style", there are always going to be these kinds of issues where two completely separate rules interact in an odd way. I don't want my rulebooks to be unnecessarily "legalese" just to handle the odd "ducking bankers" who would seek to abuse the system when common sense can be applied.

Just my opinion of course - but if they're going to add some sort of statement to clear this up for this rule, they would need to apply the same text to TTT, and any other situation where this may apply in the future until such time as they come up with a 3rd Edition and can explicitly state it once in the critical tables.

Regards,

Dave
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Postby skavendan » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:45 pm

So in a act of maturity your suppose to say am not going to play you because I don't like your interpretation of the rules?

*throws the dummy across the room*
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Postby Foxmeister » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:13 pm

skavendan wrote:So in a act of maturity your suppose to say am not going to play you because I don't like your interpretation of the rules?

*throws the dummy across the room*
There are interpretations of the rules, and blatant abuses - this would be a blatant and obvious abuse in my opinion and if someone is trying this on no amount of reasoned debate is going to sway them. It has nothing to do with "maturity" or "throwing dummies across rooms". Not wishing to play someone because they want to act like a "ducking banker" does not make you "immature". It has to do with life being too short to have to put up with such nonsense.

The Shadow AF rule states:
Any Shadow vessel armed with a Beam weapon can use the beam as a point defence system.
There are rules in the rulebook for determine how a random arc or weapon is determined, and if you follow these if you have lost the arc of the beam weapon, you no longer have that beam weapon and therefore cannot turn it into a turret mounted point defense weapon.


Regards,

Dave
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Postby AdrianH » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:49 pm

That's one way of looking at it. Another is to consider that it is either a control system or some sort of scanner which has been damaged. In a metal ship belonging to a younger race, a hit which could physically knock out all the weapons in one arc would have to do a lot of damage; a hit to a control system, on the other hand, could take out several weapons without actually damaging the guns.

So it could be argued that a Shadow ship has different systems for concentrating a focussed beam ahead and firing rapid pulses all around. It could be one of these, rather than the beam generator itself, which gets knocked out.

I'm not stating categorically that this is the case; but it might be. Stating "my way is the only way, anyone else is a 'ducking banker'" doesn't prove it one way or another.

As for TTT, if you've lost forward arc then you can't get a weapon lock on anything 45 degrees either side of straight ahead but you can still shoot straight ahead. If you've lost boresight arc then the big gun's scanner has gone but a successful TTT action could be interpreted as feeding targetting data from another forward-firing weapon to the big gun. The same applies - I'm not stating for certain that this is the case, but I wouldn't throw insults at someone who played that way.
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Postby Ripple » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:32 pm

By the same reasoning why do we need rule books at all, we're all reasonable people here, we should agree on everything.

Seriously, if you can identify a known issue with a rule you have to close it. Why, because there are going to be plenty of unknown ones to lose opponents over, and the player base isn't so large we can just grab the next guy for each rule we come across.

I see this a lot in the British games, maybe Americans are just a nastier bunch of people, but we need rules to keep us from killing each other over a minor play disagreement.

Ripple
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Postby silashand » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:35 pm

Ripple wrote:I see this a lot in the British games, maybe Americans are just a nastier bunch of people, but we need rules to keep us from killing each other over a minor play disagreement.
OT: I learned a long time ago that this is just a game. I know it's cliche, but if you are really getting that worked up over something you do to *relax* and *have fun* then I think you need to reconsider your choice of hobbies ;-). JMO though...

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