Bumping up Elites

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.

What would be the best change to make Elites more Elite?

Poll ended at Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:46 am

Increase Target Number
4
44%
Increase Save
2
22%
Increase Move
0
No votes
Better Suppression Immunity/Resistance
3
33%
 
Total votes: 9
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Graywinter
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Bumping up Elites

Postby Graywinter » Wed Aug 06, 2008 1:46 am

We've been kicking around the idea of making Elite troops a bit better for their points. Waffen SS, Paratroops, Commandos, etc... all seem kind of expensive for their abilities - and not any better where it counts in relation to "ordinary" troops.

We have found that a mere +1 cover save is meaningless, and close combat is a rare occurance. Fearless is next to worthless, as dropping 1 suppression dice rarely makes a difference.


What's the best way to do that?
"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Winston Churchill
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Postby hithero » Wed Aug 06, 2008 6:50 am

I've found that when in cover they are awesome, but would like them to have there bonus save applied when in the open as well as they hug any divit or bump in the ground. Their save cannot be generally increased and have their bonus as this would then become to great in hard cover. We already play it that that the Fearless rule takes effect every time they are shot at and not just the first time, otherwise it has no effect at all.
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Postby JayRaider » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:21 am

Isn't being able to call him Artillery Support worth the points for Elites?
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Postby Armydillo978 » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:00 pm

JayRaider wrote:Isn't being able to call him Artillery Support worth the points for Elites?
It's ok, if you have arty. :)

For me, a better armor save would work, especially for those missions where you don't have air or big gun support. Or inside a building.

Sure, the 105's could drop a few rounds into the danger-close zone as your clearing rooms, but that would suck if the building came down around ya.

I'm just thinking the "upgrade" for elites would have to be something that would be portable to the various types of missions they could be run through.

Just a thought.
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Postby Graywinter » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:03 pm

JayRaider wrote:Isn't being able to call him Artillery Support worth the points for Elites?
Not all elites can do that.
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Postby Mr Evil » Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:37 pm

i feel elites are fine as they are after all this isnt 40k after all...
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Postby Agis » Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:49 am

Some ideas I was discussing with Matt during writing of WaW but that were eventually discarded.
The following rules will give elite forces a decent “bump” - however – and I really have to stress this point – IMO Elites are good enough as they are!
These rules are totally unofficial, they were discarded with good reason after all!
;-)

New or changed rules:
P. 10 - Unit Leaders and Command Distance
Every unit in the game has a unit leader, as listed on its unit description in the army list. If a unit consists of only one model, then that model is assumed to be the unit leader.
All models in the unit must end every action within Command Distance of their unit leader.
The Command Distance is 4 + the initiative modifier of the army in inches (see the following table).

Army Initiative Modifier
British Army Infantry +2
British Army Carrier Platoon Force (all Infantry units are fielded with UC transports) +3
British Paratrooper +4
British Commando +5
German Grenadier +2
German Panzergrenadier (all Infantry units are fielded with transports) +3
Fallschirmjäger +4
Waffen SS +5
Soviet Army Infantry +1
Soviet Motor Rifle (all Infantry units are fielded with transports) +2
Soviet Tank Desant +2
US Army Infantry +2
US Army Armoured Infantry +3
US Paratrooper +4

Example: Every unit in an US Infantry army (initiative modifier 2) has a Command Distance of (4+2) 6”.
Every unit in an US Paratrooper army (initiative modifier 4) has a Command Distance of (4+ 4) 8”.
Better trained troops did not need such a short leash and can act more independently.


For the rest of the text of the World at War rulebook use the above mentioned way to determine the Command Distance instead the fixed 6” distance.

Design Note: When using the variable Command Distances make sure to also use the Double Suppression Trait for MG's! Otherwise it is too easy for many forces to spread out so far that it is almost impossible to suppress any unit.

P. 13 - The Game Turn
Each game turn is split into two phases to make the process of combat more orderly (aka playable).
Players will run through each phase together and, when each turn is complete, every unit on each player’s side will have had a chance to act and affect the outcome of the battle.
The two phases are – Initiative Phase and Activation Phase.
When the Activation Phase has been completed, the game turn ends and the next one begin with the Initiative Phase. This continues until the battle is complete and a victor is declared!

Initiative Phase
Beware - the following alternating activation method changes the way of playing Bf:Evo considerable! It requires some book keeping and is best suited for smaller battles!

The Initiative Phase is used to resolve any actions that do not require players to make any choices and to decide who will have the initiative for the turn – in other words, who has gained a position of tactical advantage.
At the start of each game turn, both players roll for initiative using 2D6 adding the initiative modifier of the army (see Army Lists). Any ties are re-rolled. This is called the Initiative roll. The Initiative roll is also used in some scenarios.
If the Command unit of an army was suppressed last turn, it will suffer a
–1 penalty to its initiative roll if the Com-mand unit has lost one action in the previ-ous game turn and a
-2 penalty if the Command unit has lost two actions in the previous game turn.
The initiative roll also suffers a -2 penalty if the Command unit is destroyed or none was chosen.

Activation Phase
The player who wins the Initiative Phase by rolling higher than his opponent will decide whether to activate a unit first or force his opponent to do so. Players then alternate activating their units. First, a player nominates one of his units and activates it, and then his opponent nominates one of his own and activates that. This continues until all units has been activated. Note that a particularly large army may still have units to activate after its opponents units have finished acting. In this case, the remaining units are just activated in any order the controlling player wishes.
After all units from both sides have been activated the game turn is over.

P. 41-140 - Army Lists
All Command Assets of all armies get the following special rule for free:
Command: As long as the Commanding Officer of the Command unit remains on the table, the player can activate not only one but two friendly units one time per game turn, no matter how many Command units are on the table. Any unit activated in this manner can NOT be activated in the same game turn again.

Example: The Lieutenant of a British Paratrooper Command section is still alive and on the table. His controlling player is about to activate 1 unit. But since another unit is in a perfect position to also open fire he decided to activate both units at once.

P. 145… - Scenarios
Whenever a scenario is asking for both players to roll a dice to decide who starts, make an initiative roll:
Both players make an Initiative roll. The lowest scoring player deploys his army first and takes the first turn.

Double Suppression
This weapon trait applies mostly to Machineguns. A similar morale-devastating effect was also achieved when using flamethrowers.
The Machineguns of World War Two were able to shoot with an enormous rate of fire. The German MG-42's most noted features was its incredible high rate of fire of about 1,200 rounds per minute, twice the rate of the British Vickers machine gun and American Browning at 600 round/min.
Every Damage Dice the weapon with the trait rolls will count as two for the purposes of Suppression only. If every model in the target unit is assigned two or more Damage Dice when this weapon is used, the unit will lose two actions from Suppres-sion, rather than just one.

Example: A US Infantry HMG Support Team is shooting from 30” at a German Grenadier Fire Team (full 5 man) that is in the open (no obscure-ment, no cover). Since the M3 SMG and the Ga-rand rifle are out of range only the M1919A6 is shooting. The US player rolls 4 dice for the set up weapon and comes up with 2, 3, 3 and 5.
All damage dice are allocated since no die came up as a 1. Since every damage dice counts as two for suppression, the German unit is suppressed and loses its next two actions. In addition one Grenadier is removed (5+1 = kill score) and 2 Grenadiers have to roll equal or greater then their Save score to survive.


The following weapons of the Battlefield Evolution: World at War rulebook gain the Double Suppression trait:

British Armoury:
• Bren LMG
• Flamethrower
• Vickers MMG
British Vehicle Armoury
• Browning .50 cal MG
• Heavy Flamethrower
• MG
• Pintle MG
German Armoury
• FG-42 LMG
• Flammenwerfer-41
• MG-42 MMG
• MG-42 LMG
German Vehicle Armoury
• MG
• Pintle MG
Soviet Armoury:
• DP LMG
• Flamethrower
• Maxim HMG
Soviet Vehicle Armoury
• MG
• Pintle MG
US Armoury:
• M1918 BAR
• M1919A6
• M2 .50 Cal HMG
• M2-2 Flamethrower
US Vehicle Armoury
• Browning .50 cal MG
• MG
• Pintle MG
cheers and keep on gaming, Agis
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Postby Graywinter » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:30 am

Thanks Agis! I really like the fact that you posted this stuff. It is alot to digest, but gives me some great ideas!
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Postby Agis » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:44 am

Graywinter wrote:Thanks Agis! I really like the fact that you posted this stuff. It is alot to digest, but gives me some great ideas!
My pleasure Graywinter! :D
It was exactly my intend to provide some additional options and ideas.
cheers and keep on gaming, Agis
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Postby soulman » Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:03 pm

I was reading the modern book last night, sas save is 6+, standed army is 5+, so not great there, but elites like sas have other abilites added to them of course...

On the other side of the coin, Mea rabble have no saves, so poor training etc...
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Postby Mr Evil » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:14 pm

think sas have lower save due to not wearing cumbersome osprey armour.... that said my osprey armour combined with a ubacs top has alot of mobility...
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Postby Graywinter » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:49 pm

Really like the larger command radius, it's a brilliant way to reflect higher quality troops, and it reduces their casualties from incoming fire. That in itself would be almost like increasing their target number without actually having to increase it.

Maybe increase all elite troops to an 8 or 10" radius? Would like to standardize it instead of having each army different.

I like it! 8)

@ Poll Results: About like I guessed it would be; increase target number. That, along with increasing the command radius would give them some suppression resistance too... a nice bump that makes Elites worth the points cost.
"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Winston Churchill
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Postby Agis » Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:34 pm

Graywinter wrote:Really like the larger command radius, it's a brilliant way to reflect higher quality troops, and it reduces their casualties from incoming fire. That in itself would be almost like increasing their target number without actually having to increase it.

Maybe increase all elite troops to an 8 or 10" radius? Would like to standardize it instead of having each army different.

I like it! 8)

@ Poll Results: About like I guessed it would be; increase target number. That, along with increasing the command radius would give them some suppression resistance too... a nice bump that makes Elites worth the points cost.
He, he, thanks! IMO the variable command range together with the alternating activation reflects elite troops quite well. They really operate at a higher pace!
Most of the time you win the initiative and you can act before your opponent.
If you want to enhance this more give all Comamnd Assets the ability to activate 2 units at once! But careful here, it is easy to overdo it!
:wink:
cheers and keep on gaming, Agis
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Postby Graywinter » Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:19 pm

The initiative system is really, really cool too - but I don't really want to change the mechanics of the system - which I love. How would it work to just change the command radius of elites, and what do you think is better - making one radius for all elites, or having a different radius for different elites?

British Army Infantry 6"
British Army Carrier Platoon Force (all Infantry units are fielded with UC transports) 7"
British Paratrooper 8"
British Commando 9"
German Grenadier 6"
German Panzergrenadier (all Infantry units are fielded with transports) 7"
Fallschirmjäger 8"
Waffen SS 9"
Soviet Army Infantry 7"
Soviet Motor Rifle (all Infantry units are fielded with transports) 6"
Soviet Tank Desant 6"
US Army Infantry 6"
US Army Armoured Infantry 7"
US Paratrooper 8"
"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Winston Churchill
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Postby Agis » Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:57 pm

Graywinter wrote:The initiative system is really, really cool too - but I don't really want to change the mechanics of the system - which I love. How would it work to just change the command radius of elites, and what do you think is better - making one radius for all elites, or having a different radius for different elites?
If you are not using the alternate activation system I recommedn the basic 6" command radius for the following armies:
British Army Infantry
British Army Carrier Platoon Force (all Infantry units are fielded with UC transports)
German Grenadier
German Panzergrenadier (all Infantry units are fielded with transports)
Soviet Army Infantry
Soviet Motor Rifle (all Infantry units are fielded with transports)
Soviet Tank Desant
US Army Infantry US Army Armoured Infantry

and 9" command radius for the following "elite" forces:

British Paratrooper
British Commando
Fallschirmjäger
Waffen SS
US Paratrooper
cheers and keep on gaming, Agis
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Postby Graywinter » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:24 pm

I like it, a larger command radius has several effects - including allowing the squads to minimize the impact of artillery.
"Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver. The greater the general, the more he contributes in maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter." - Winston Churchill
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Postby Graywinter » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:46 am

Non-Com and I are going to try the unit activation and initiative system in our game tomorrow. I'll let you know how it works!
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Postby Agis » Sun Aug 10, 2008 6:57 am

Graywinter wrote:Non-Com and I are going to try the unit activation and initiative system in our game tomorrow. I'll let you know how it works!
Let me know! I am curious.
Many of the initial playtest games were done using this system. IMO it is best suited for battles up to 1500 pts.
After that it can get a bit confusing. You really have to remind yourself which unit was activated, who can react etc. We used markes to keep track!

But hey - in really big battles you have to do the same with the UGO / IGO system... :wink:
cheers and keep on gaming, Agis
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Postby Graywinter » Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:19 am

I assume that in this system, reactions are handled normally?
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Postby big RED many » Sun Aug 10, 2008 9:34 am

Graywinter wrote:I assume that in this system, reactions are handled normally?
Good luck today, sent you an email.

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