lethal zones

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shadowbloodmoon
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lethal zones

Postby shadowbloodmoon » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:45 pm

Hi guys, it's been a while since I've been on here, but with the relase of World at War and Modern Combat, I've come back to reading here again. Okay. I understand how lethal zones work with weapons that have a single damage die, i.e. a tank gun of 1xd10+4 does it's damage to the target and all other models in it's lethal zone radius. I'm good with that. However, what about weapons, such as rockets and cluster bombs that have multiple damage dice already? As it stands, the rules say that the damage is allocated normally and then lethal zone damage is done to all models in the zone.

Now, for instance I fire S-8 rockets into a group of infantry. They are 2xD6 and lethal zone/4. I roll my two damage dice and allocate to the first and second target, as per standard fire zone rules. Now, as for the lethal zone, all models in the zone get dice, but is it 2xD6 for each model or is it 1xD6 per model? Also, do the first and second target get more dice added to the first set of dice from the initial hit or are they ignored because they have already been allocated dice? I'm a little shaky on those rules, as I find it hard to believe that the main target of a rocket strike would only get one of the dice while all surrounding that target would get 2 (or possibly more).

Is it possible someone could clarify this one for me? I tried looking into past messages and all I see is how to measure the lethal zone. The play guide for W@W only uses a tank gun as it's example. Again, I'm good with single dice weapons. Thank you in advance for your guidance.
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Postby hithero » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:13 pm

I believe that all models in the zone are attacked by the full damage dice of the weapon. This does seem that weapons with multiple damage dice never miss. As a house rule to compensate this accuaracy from inaccurate weapons we say that any 'artillery' have to roll for deviation, even if it can fire direct.
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tealzooka
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Postby tealzooka » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:19 pm

I do believe hithero is right. The weapon's blast is 2xd6 to all models in the 4" zone
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Graywinter
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Postby Graywinter » Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:04 pm

It has to be that all models in the LZ get damage, because when you scatter artillery, you may not end up in contact with a model - that is to say that the fire zone marker could be between two models.

We measure from there, and any model in the lethal range sustain the damage.

Now, admittedly, we should roll for each model seperately since each model gets 2d6+1, but we have been just counting the number of models in the zone and rolling all hits against them. For example, if 6 models are in the LZ, we roll 12 dice, allocating hits vs the models closest to the FZ marker first. I think that maybe we should start doing it that way - it seems like it would cut down some of the devastation. (Rolling 2 sixes for the same model would just kill that model twice, instead of getting two sixes when you roll for the whole batch, resulting in two dead models)
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Postby shadowbloodmoon » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:43 pm

That's kind of what I was thinking. Just allocate all dice to each model in the lethal zone. It's the simplest solution I've found. It just doesn't coincide with the dice rules. 2xd6 is different than 2d6 according to the rules. Like with an smg that does 3xd6, each die is allocated to a different model if fired at a unit with more than one model.

I kind of like Graywinter's idea of just rolling x number of dice depending on models in the lethal zone and then allocating normally. I'll post this in Rulesmasters and see what I get. Thanks guys.
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Postby Rabidchild » Wed Jul 30, 2008 9:23 pm

Rolling them as a pool gives you a greater chance of hitting targets, as Graywinter says, when it's two dice on a model two hits would not result in hitting two models.

If two infantry are in the open and are caught by a weapon that rolls four D6 against the unit, there is 11 chances out of 16 to hit them both, 68.75%.

If the same two are caught by a weapon that rolls two D6 against each model, there is a 3 out of 4 chance that at least one hit would be rolled on each one, or a 9 out of 16 chance that both would be hit, 56.25%.

Graywinter, if my math is right, and I'm not certain that it is (anyone out there that can correct me would be welcome!), maybe this is part of the reason that you have been having trouble with your Nebelwerfers and bombs?
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Postby hithero » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:06 pm

Rolling a handful of dice would result in a lot more casualties as every Kill would be a kill and all models probably having to make at least one save. If rolled in pairs kills may be wasted as they could end up on the same model.
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Postby Graywinter » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:10 pm

That's the point I was making, about rolling the damage against each model in the zone cutting out some of the devastation, instead of rolling a handful and allocating. I'd like an official ruling on the procedure from Matt or Agis, too.
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Postby Rabidchild » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:23 pm

Ah, I see, I hadn't realized there was a question of which was correct. I thought that the difference between the two wasn't seen.

While I am not Matt or Agis, I believe that the method that is correct for LZ weapons is to roll dice against each model individually. I'm working from memory here, but I believe the LZ rules say that the attack roll is made against each model under the LZ, if it worked the same way as a FZ that wouldn't need clarification.

To add to my two cents above, I use a shortcut of rolling one die against every model under the LZ as if it was a FZ, and then roll again for any survivors. It's not entirely accurate because the closest models still take the hits, rather than an even chance for all models, but it does speed things up quite a bit.
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Postby Graywinter » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:37 pm

Thanks RC, I'll give that one a try. Might make the Werfer more bearable.
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dsfrankevo
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Re: lethal zones

Postby dsfrankevo » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:44 pm

shadowbloodmoon wrote:Now, for instance I fire S-8 rockets into a group of infantry. They are 2xD6 and lethal zone/4.
OK lets go with an example - you fire rockets at a group of my infantry - the stats for these rockets are as you mention 2xd6 - leathal zone/4

You designate an impact point - which now has to be one of my models - I then roll a d10 for scatter - I roll a 6 and move the IP 6" away from my troops - you then roll a d10 and roll a 7 so the IP moves 7" back along the same path - putting it 1" away from the original IP on the other side of my squad from the direction I moved the IP

We now place the template and 6 of my models are affected by the blast template - 4" is pretty big after all

You roll 12 D6 - 2xD6 for every model in the blast area- I'm in the open so your target number is 4 and my save & kill won't be affected

you roll four 1s - two 2s - four 4s and two 6s

the 1s are ignored all together - the 2s are counted for suppression but do not kill - the 6s kill outright and I have to save vs the four rolled 4s with a 6+

I roll a 3 a 4 and two 6s -so I lose a total of 4 of my 6 dudes - 2 killed out right and 2 more to failed saves
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Postby dsfrankevo » Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:50 pm

Graywinter wrote:That's the point I was making, about rolling the damage against each model in the zone cutting out some of the devastation, instead of rolling a handful and allocating. I'd like an official ruling on the procedure from Matt or Agis, too.
Nope - once the LZ of the arty is determined the fire is resolved like any other FZ - by the hand full - not individually

Hope for big scatter and on the up side - most arty is one shot
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Postby Graywinter » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:07 pm

Except the Werfer, which costs only 10 points more than heavy artillery and can fire every turn.
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Postby dsfrankevo » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:53 am

Graywinter wrote:Except the Werfer, which costs only 10 points more than heavy artillery and can fire every turn.
Yeah - I expect some 'nerfing' of the Nubelwerfer in the future - off board it would need a spotter that would have to actively spot for it - using ready action and that you could hunt down and kill

on the table it would have a long minimum range - longer than the mortar's min range and still be subject to scatter - and take awhile to reload - I'd even say it might be a one shot

as currently written it is problematic - I'll have to get a couple for my Germans and maybe even call then Katuyskas and give them to my russians - or call it the callopie and mount it on a sherman for the amreicans
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Postby non com » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:10 am

boy whats up with this nebelwefer hate club :P
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Postby hithero » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:51 am

dsfrankevo wrote:
Graywinter wrote:That's the point I was making, about rolling the damage against each model in the zone cutting out some of the devastation, instead of rolling a handful and allocating. I'd like an official ruling on the procedure from Matt or Agis, too.
Nope - once the LZ of the arty is determined the fire is resolved like any other FZ - by the hand full - not individually

Hope for big scatter and on the up side - most arty is one shot
Its not the way I play it and which models do you allocate the highest dice to, those nearest the point of inpact or the shooter (which would be illogical), do the rules say? If not then I would suggest that models are dices for individually. This definately needs clearing up from Matt

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Postby Agis » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:01 am

Graywinter wrote:That's the point I was making, about rolling the damage against each model in the zone cutting out some of the devastation, instead of rolling a handful and allocating. I'd like an official ruling on the procedure from Matt or Agis, too.
I can't speak for Matt, I can only tell how I read and play the rules.
Rulebook P. 21 : "...roll the weapon’s Damage Dice against every model either fully or partially within the weapon’s Lethal Zone."

Example: A unit of 5 US Soldiers is hit by the dreaded Nebelwerfer. After determining the final impact point 3 Soldiers are within the LZ. For each soldier you roll 2xD6+1 -individually-. You are not rolling 6xD6+1 and allocate.

The weapon becomes more devastating if you roll "a handful and allocate".
Maybe that is the reason why artillery is so dreaded here... :wink:
cheers and keep on gaming, Agis
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Postby MongooseMatt » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:10 am

Agis has the right of it here.
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Postby dsfrankevo » Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:21 pm

non com wrote:boy whats up with this nebelwefer hate club :P
I dig the Werfer - especially mounted on a Maultier (my favorite Panzer Blitz counter ever) :wink:

If I understand the aforementioned gripes correctly - those in question -are saying...

"The rules as currently written make the 'werfer' too powerful. :x "

And much like Christmas - where it is better to give than to recieve

- with the 'werfer' it down right sucks to recieve

- especially every turn for the points they cost :o
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Postby Agis » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:48 pm

dsfrankevo wrote:
non com wrote:boy whats up with this nebelwefer hate club :P
If I understand the aforementioned gripes correctly - those in question -are saying...
"The rules as currently written make the 'werfer' too powerful. :x "

And much like Christmas - where it is better to give than to recieve
- with the 'werfer' it down right sucks to recieve
- especially every turn for the points they cost :o
Sorry it may be a language thing: But I honestly do not understand your posting. :?: Who is those in question?
Please explain...
cheers and keep on gaming, Agis
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