Apollo vs Sagittarius

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.

Which is better?

Apollo
9
31%
Sagittarius
20
69%
 
Total votes: 29
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l33tpenguin
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Apollo vs Sagittarius

Postby l33tpenguin » Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:00 pm

So, my fleet is EA, and I'm very fond of Crusade. I think their hulls are awesome looking. I don't, on the other hand, much care for the Early years ships, though many claim this is EAs best set.

I was wondering, from your experience, how well their respective bombardment ships, the Apollo and the Sagittarius, compare to one another?

By the numbers its really hard for me to tell. The Apollo has more dice to throw along with more interceptors and a stronger hull. On the other hand, the Sagittarius is a full 2 priority levels below the Apollo, allowing a fleet to field far more of them. Does the Apollo's higher AD and defenses make up for this rift? Or do the Crusade Era Ships suffer from the effects of high PL hulls?
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CZuschlag
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Postby CZuschlag » Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:16 pm

Swarms win. End of discussion.
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Lord David the Denied
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Postby Lord David the Denied » Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:28 pm

Four Saggitarius vs one Appollo is a forgone conclusion.
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Postby eldiablito » Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:49 pm

Yeah, if the Apollo was a Raid level, then I'd say the Apollo was the winner (and everyone would complain about it being too good). Meanwhile, the Sagittarius puts out tremendous firepower and a decent distribution of said weapons across multiple hulls.

Now if this was a HUGE game and you could afford 4 Apollo ships in a single squadron, then I would obviously prefer that over 16 Sagittarius ships.
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l33tpenguin
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Postby l33tpenguin » Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:16 pm

eldiablito wrote:Yeah, if the Apollo was a Raid level, then I'd say the Apollo was the winner (and everyone would complain about it being too good). Meanwhile, the Sagittarius puts out tremendous firepower and a decent distribution of said weapons across multiple hulls.

Now if this was a HUGE game and you could afford 4 Apollo ships in a single squadron, then I would obviously prefer that over 16 Sagittarius ships.
Haven't played one that large, although I DO have 5 of them :D (I think they are a beautiful design). So, in larger fighters, 5+ War points or even a couple Armageddon points, you would consider the Apollo, in squadrons to be greater value?
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Postby phoenixhawk » Mon Jul 07, 2008 1:04 am

As my EA focus is mostly Crusade with enough splash to do a good Third Age, I must say that I prefer the Apollo. I think it might still need some tweaking ot make it a little better and more competitive, but I like it over the Saggi. And story-line wise, Apollos are still coming off the lines, while the Saggi was destroyed by the Minbari a long time ago.

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Postby inq101 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:23 am

Saggi's most of the time, but it is a single purpose ship. I'd argue that it can't do anything except bombardment while the Apollo is tough enough that you can give it flash or heavy missile broadsides and fly through the middle of the opponents fleet.
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Postby Tolwyn » Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:09 am

Swarm wins. 4 Sagittarius vs 1 Apollo = zero chance for the Apollo
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Postby Locutus9956 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:22 am

4 Saggs are better in every instance over 1 Apollo. More initiative sinks and more firepower. At first glance the Apollo's ability to fire its missiles every turn may seem a big advantage that basically doubles its firepower but with careful maneuvering a fleet of sags can alterate broadsides (easily if they make come about checks and with a bit more difficulty if they dont).

The extra surviveability is also kind of moot as its NOT more surviveable than 4 seperate ships and beisdes theyre basically artillery ships so surviveability isnt top of the list since if you play it right you'll be engaging from beyond most of the enemies return fire range.

That said, there is certainly something to be said for loading up an Apollo with heavy missiles and ploughing into the middle of an enemy fleet (use it as a short range brawler with obscene firepower rather than a bombardment ship). I've toyed with this idea on paper numerous times but I must confess I've never actually tried putting it into practice.... I will though one day (not actually played my beloved crusade ships for some time actually (I blame LC and his tales of Early EA glory :P) ;)
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Postby No. 1 Bear » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:21 pm

Saggis win easily. They are such nasty ships, the crits they can inflict on big ships is horrible. And then theres more of them. So guess what its another on for the swarms.
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Postby eldiablito » Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:04 pm

l33tpenguin wrote:Haven't played one that large, although I DO have 5 of them :D (I think they are a beautiful design). So, in larger fighters, 5+ War points or even a couple Armageddon points, you would consider the Apollo, in squadrons to be greater value?
I will say that this is more on some mental math and less on actual experience. All games that I've played either against or along side Earth fleets haven't been large enough to warrant a full 4 Apollo ships.

On the surface, the greater init sinks and cheaper class makes the Sagittarius a better buy. One way that my local Earth player uses them is to go All Stop the first turn and fire off 24 AP, Precise missiles from 40" away. Next turn, they do an All Stop and Pivot and unload 16 SAP, Precise missiles from 30" (Forward arc). The final turn, they once again do an All Stop and Pivot to shoot 24 AP, Double Damage, Precise missiles (opposing broadside arc). That is great firepower! You could do that 4 times if you are so lucky to own 16 Sagittarius models.

Now consider 4 Apollo ships. Instead of hanging back so far away, you can fire 32 SAP, Precise missiles every turn and you can maneuver anyway you want. Ideally, they would orbit the battle and use the Double Damage Forward, Aft and opposing arc missiles for those who try to get around all the rest of the fleet. Either that, or do as other's suggest, throw them up the middle and use Double Damage missiles on the Port and Starboard arcs. You have greater flexibility with this vessel.

IMO, the Sagittarius would usually seem better if all you want is raw, long range AD. You have to assume that you can screen them off from enemy fire and commit to that single focus. Meanwhile, 4 Apollo ships will do more initial damage (by 8 AD) every volley and with Precise, you can make many enemies sweat the additional critical hits you will inflict (roughly 2 extra crits in that single volley).
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Postby Hans Olo » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:06 am

CZuschlag wrote:Swarms win. End of discussion.
Thats it!
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Tank
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Postby Tank » Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:15 pm

My point of view (as a mostly Early EA player) is that at 5 point raid there is more flexibilty in the Early fleet list than any other EA list and they scale up throught he era's.

i do like Sag's but I will only use 2 in a 5pt raid fleet, any more is... bleh!

The Apollo excels more in higher priority games against fleets with less active defences but overall Id prefer a sag!
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Postby Tolwyn » Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:47 am

Tank wrote:My point of view (as a mostly Early EA player) is that at 5 point raid there is more flexibilty in the Early fleet list than any other EA list and they scale up throught he era's.
Yeah, a guy at my gaming club refuses to play any other EA list as early. He simply comments why he should give up the many advandtages of the early EA if the later lists are all weaker and less flexible.

I personally dislike split of the EA in 3 seperate lists since Armageddon even if I play Crusade Era.
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Lord David the Denied
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Postby Lord David the Denied » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:15 am

There wasn't any other way to get rid of the silly fleets with Saggitarius cruisers backed by Warlocks and Chronos frigates...
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Tolwyn
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Postby Tolwyn » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:28 am

Or acceptable reason.

One problem I see is with lacking a decent battle level choice early EA has the best opportunity for swarms. Saggitarius for longrange bombardment and swarms of Thetys or skirmish level ships backed up by a Hyperion Command for Initiative reasons.
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Lord David the Denied
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Postby Lord David the Denied » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:33 am

The Hyperion and Nova at raid level are fine choices for early EA, but they do seem to be encouraged to buy down. Those Artemis and early Olympus are just too good to pass up, not to mention the Sagittarius.
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Tolwyn
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Postby Tolwyn » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:17 am

Yeah, right 8)

That's what thje guy at my club too says.
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Postby Lord David the Denied » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:41 am

We'd see a lot less of this problem if there was some kind of "rarity" rule, or a rigid enforcement of in-service dates. Saggis would only appear in Dilgar War and Earth-Minbari War games, for instance.
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Postby Burger » Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:45 am

Lord David the Denied wrote:We'd see a lot less of this problem if there was some kind of "rarity" rule
We'd see a lot less of it if swarm fleets were actually fixed, rather than the problem being masked by a workaround.
Lord David the Denied wrote:or a rigid enforcement of in-service dates. Saggis would only appear in Dilgar War and Earth-Minbari War games, for instance.
Yeah, but a lot of people have their favourite fleets, and using ISDs would prevent them from playing it.
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