Supplment idea

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
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Tank
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Postby Tank » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:17 pm

Yeah well it wouldn't matter too much as the device they were using was keyed to glow when detecting human DNA so any other humans they captured were bound to confirm the belief that they were Minbari souls.


Sometimes you just have to think that the Minbari are simpletons, who obviously don't know what the doohickey they're using is supposed to do.
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Burger
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Postby Burger » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:21 pm

Tank wrote:Yeah well it wouldn't matter too much as the device they were using was keyed to glow when detecting human DNA so any other humans they captured were bound to confirm the belief that they were Minbari souls.
That is one explanation... just like Franklin said the Soul Hunter could have been using a personality matrix to preserve someone's pesonality.

Or it could have really been a soul migration.

It isn't really explained for definite either way.
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Postby Tank » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:25 pm

Im vaguely sure I have read something about it in a B5 RPG sourcebook, oh well failing memory goes with increased age!
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Postby kitsune106 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:34 pm

okay, here si a ship idea, for the shadow league, that is, league group that is helped by mr. Morden and his allies. they primarily want to extact revenge on the dilgar. to them, gettign shadow tech is just evenign the playing field.

Klartrik flight (wing of 4 flights) Patrol
One Queen provided huge warrior drones to be melded with and converted by
the shadow tech provided by Mr Morden;'s allies in the shadow league. Always
looking to adapt and evolve - the shadow emissary had found a perfect race
to build a war machine of devastating ability. Resilient and powerful but
still as disposable as any Gaim drone these fighters became feared wherever
they were encountered.


Speed 10, Dogfighting 0, Turn SM, Hull: 6

Special: Dodge 3+, fighter,


Light phasing Slicer, range 2 T 3 Mini-beam

helped a lot by Da Boss with this ship.
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Burger
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Postby Burger » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:05 pm

I suggest 1 or 2 flights per wing, with those uber-stats!
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Postby kitsune106 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:11 pm

wing of 4 flights is listed there. and why 2 flights max? i orginally had 3 flights, then was toldf ot make it 4.

but I could be wrong. it's like a nail, only with higher hull, and no stealth. and no dogfighting. is the hull 6 so overpowering?
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Locutus9956
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Postby Locutus9956 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:16 pm

Uber Stats? Id hardly call a fighter with dogfight 0, 3+ dodge and speed 10 uber stats. Yes it's hull 6 which is nice but its not that well armed anyway. Personally I'd say it's a better attack fighter than a starfury or a Nial thanks to the hull 6 but with dogfight 0 and a lower dodge score I dont see it living long for the most part.

4 per wing would strike me as about right frankly. Put it to 1 or 2 and it will just be useless.
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Postby katadder » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:22 pm

nials are 2 and have more mini beams and better dogfight plus faster with better dodge. which is why i suggested 4 per wing.
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Burger
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Postby Burger » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:24 pm

Hull 6 makes it very hard to kill with AF. hull 6 and dodge 3 makes it even harder to kill with ship weapons. Its weapons are as good as a Nials, with 3 AD Mini-beam. Only disadvantage is low dogfight and speed.
Last edited by Burger on Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby kitsune106 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:38 pm

so, the hull 6 is the main problem, with the dodge 3, right/ what if i make it dogfight -2? then woudl that help burger? or dogfight -6?

no stealth, so accurate weapons will hit it easily.
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Postby Locutus9956 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:45 pm

Burger wrote:Hull 6 makes it very hard to kill with AF. hull 6 and dodge 3 makes it even harder to kill with ship weapons. Very good weapons itself... that thing is way better than a Nial.
Dogfight 0. I cannot overstate how HUGE that is. It is certainly much better at attacking SHIPS than a Nial is (though I'd argue a Nial is FAR harder to kill with standard ship weapons with stealth and a 2+ dodge, frankly both are likely to just ingore the vast majority of normal fire).

However it's way less vulnerable to antifighter fire but frankly it's STILL not that well armed and is a hell of alot less dangerous to ships than say, Thunderbolts (hull 5, dodge 3+, more AD, half of which can outrange anti fighter guns entirely (granted its not minibeam but its not much different all in all).

By far and a way though in any game I've ever played where both sides use fighters even moderately the fighter battle has in pretty much EVERY instance, gone to the side with the superior dogfighters. Now the only issue I'd say with those fighters is that they could be a tad abusive if combined with some good dogfighters so it largely depends what else is going to be available to this 'shadow leauge' fleet whether theyre too good or not. On their own they will just get eaten by dogfighters but if theyre alllowed to join forces with, say, Vree dogfighters, or god forbid, Minbari fighters, then I see them being potentially a bit too good. The hull 6 really IS a big deal as it makes them MUCH more resistant to anti fighter fire. The only way theyre likely to die quickly is in dogfights.

It's just the fac that dogfighting is so easy in ACTA that I'm inclinded to think Burger may be overeacting a tad.
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Postby Burger » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:45 pm

With hull 6, I'd compare it to a Porfatis or a Riva, rather than any other fighter. They have dodge 6+ and 5+ respectively. Giving it 3+ makes it much more hardy than both of those, and in fact, easily the most hardy fighter in the game. It's hard to kill with anti-fighter, hard to kill with energy mines, hard to kill with accurate weapons because even without dodge, it does still have hull 6!

In short it is very hard to kill. And it's weapons are as good as a Nials. So I would either drop it to 2 per wing, or change dodge to 5+. Could make dogfight negative, but that is diminishing returns, -2 will pretty much always lose so -6 is no disadvantage.
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Postby katadder » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:46 pm

a nial will get there quicker. a nial has stealth 5+ and a 2+ dodge so is never likely to get hit by anything but AF. a nial has dogfight +3. ok this ship isnt going to be stopped by AF but most other things will stop it. and at least ithas to come within AF range unlike alot of other fighters.
didnt notice 3AD, was sure it was 2 when originally put to me.
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Postby kitsune106 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:48 pm

okay, so drop it to 2AD, or make it dodge 5+ then, right, it what I am hearing? it is meant as an assualt drone corruption, furious, deadly up close, no regard for self adn expendable., but still deadly. maybe remove the mini-beam trait as well? or is that going too far, removign the mini beam trait?

and thanks for all the great comments and reviews of this ship so far.
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Postby Burger » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:48 pm

Locutus9956 wrote:It's just the fac that dogfighting is so easy in ACTA that I'm inclinded to think Burger may be overeacting a tad.
Another thing it is a League fighter so it can be supported by Zorths with +3 dogfight. So the low dogfight, which is basically its only disadvantage except speed, can be ovecome that way.
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Postby kitsune106 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:50 pm

errrr, maybe no zorths. and shadow legague is like the psi corps. offically they do not exisit.

will keep that in mind. most liekly they will focus more on anti ship fighters than true dog fighters.

and if needed, can put in a rule that they can;t be supported by fighters.
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Postby Locutus9956 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:51 pm

kitsune106 wrote:so, the hull 6 is the main problem, with the dodge 3, right/ what if i make it dogfight -2? then woudl that help burger? or dogfight -6?

no stealth, so accurate weapons will hit it easily.
Sorry Kitsune, but that's just wrong too though. Dogfight 0 is low anyway Burgers complaint is that the hull 6 makes it too hard to kill with non dogfighting means. Accurate weapons WILL ignore the dodge true but they still need a 6 to hit and even SAP weapons will need a 4+. The Nial, once you make your stealth roll is hull 4 so will get hit ALOT more.

If I were to suggest any tweaks though it would not be the hull 6 or the numbers per wing, but I might make the dodge 4+ or even 5+.
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Postby kitsune106 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:53 pm

okay, can make it dodge 5+, or even dodge 6+. easy to justify. they are focused on attackign enemy ships, so won't dodgem, or use evasive actions. mayber remove the speed to 8 as well?
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Postby Locutus9956 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:58 pm

Dodge 5+ alone should do the trick to be honest with everything else as you mentioned stated previously
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Postby Burger » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:59 pm

Generally, the best way to make new ships is to base them on an existing one. If you give it a little, you take something away too. For example lets start with a Riva since you want it to be hull 6.

(a) You increase its speed from 7 to 10.
(b) You increase its dogfight from -1 to 0.
(c) You improve its dodge fom 5+ to 3+.
(d) You increase the number per wing to 4.

To balance this, you:
(e) Roughly halve its firepower... from 4AD AP+2AD P/SAP to 3AD MB.

Overall, this ship is much better than a Riva! Assuming a Riva is balanced, your ship is way overpowered. In my opinion, (e) would be balanced by (a), (b) and (d). Or (a), (b) and (c). So either leave the dodge at 5+, or the number per wing at 3. OK I concede that 2 per wing might be a bit low. But then, I consider the Riva to be pretty good at 3 per wing!
kitsune106 wrote:errrr, maybe no zorths. and shadow legague is like the psi corps. offically they do not exisit.
For that you'll have to ensure the entire fleet has no good dogfighters, and no League requisition or similar rule. That's quite a majo restriction.
kitsune106 wrote:and if needed, can put in a rule that they can;t be supported by fighters.
Exceptions are bad, mkay ;)
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