About the Narn...

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Jim?
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About the Narn...

Postby Jim? » Fri May 02, 2008 4:51 pm

The Narn used to be my primary fleet in 1e, and I was quite a reasonable admiral with them (Won 1 tourney, came 3rd twice, didn't place lower than mid-table). Overall, I managed to win about 2/3 of my games with them and lose about 1 in 6 (my prize ships were G'Quans loaded up with ship breakers getting up close and personal, while I distracted people with Ka'Tans that generally got 1 shot off before being swatted out of space).

In 2e, after being defeated in about 65% of my games, and drawing most of the others, I stopped using them except for fun games (where I still lose far more than I win). I realize their playstyle has changed, but to be honest I think they're far and away the weakest of the "big 4" younger races and are too crit vulnerable (invalidating their (generally) slightly higher damage/crew scores), their secondaries are too short ranged, and Frazis are quite frankly pants compared to 1e due to the way that AF works... and that's not even going into the G'Quan and it's varients' lack of punch.

My usual fleet composition for 5pt raid games is:-

1 G'Karith
4 Ka'Tocs
1 Sho'Kar
1 Dag'Kar
4 Sho'Kovs

Which I think is a pretty OK fleet, but still gets many more losses than wins. I've tried swapping the Ka'Tocs for Var'Nics, but they just die too quickly against beams to be really worth taking (at least from my experience).

I've also tried:-

1 G'Lan
2 Ka'Tocs/1 Var'Nic
1 G'Karith
1 Sho'Kar
4 Sho'Kovs

1 G'Tal
1 Dag'Kar
2 Ka'Tocs/1 Var'Nic
1 Sho'Kar
4 Sho'Kovs

4 Ka'Tocs/2 Var'Nics
1 G'Karith
1 Dag'Kar
1 Sho'Kar
4 Sho'Kovs

1 G'Vrahn
1 Sho'Kar
4 Sho'Kovs

1 G'Vrahn
8 Sho'Kovs

2 Rongoths
2 G'Kariths
2 Thentus
2 Sho'Kars
(Good against Minbari, rubbish against almost everyone else)

So, does anyone see any gaping holes there, or am I just rubbish with the Narn and should I stick to using the EA, League, Centauri and ISA that I seem to win far more games with?
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Postby katadder » Fri May 02, 2008 5:24 pm

personally I love to throw a t'loth or 2 in there. decent firepower, can take damage all day long and forces your opponents to keep moving if he doesnt want to be boarded by a narn bat squad.

5pts raid for me:
2 T'Loths
1 Dag'kar or g'karith
4 ka'tocs

occasionally swap a t'loth out for a var'nic but I always take one, they make a good init sink damage sponge.
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Re: About the Narn...

Postby dag'karlove » Fri May 02, 2008 5:32 pm

Jim? wrote:The Narn used to be my primary fleet in 1e, and I was quite a reasonable admiral with them (Won 1 tourney, came 3rd twice, didn't place lower than mid-table). Overall, I managed to win about 2/3 of my games with them and lose about 1 in 6 (my prize ships were G'Quans loaded up with ship breakers getting up close and personal, while I distracted people with Ka'Tans that generally got 1 shot off before being swatted out of space).

In 2e, after being defeated in about 65% of my games, and drawing most of the others, I stopped using them except for fun games (where I still lose far more than I win). I realize their playstyle has changed, but to be honest I think they're far and away the weakest of the "big 4" younger races and are too crit vulnerable (invalidating their (generally) slightly higher damage/crew scores), their secondaries are too short ranged, and Frazis are quite frankly pants compared to 1e due to the way that AF works... and that's not even going into the G'Quan and it's varients' lack of punch.

My usual fleet composition for 5pt raid games is:-

1 G'Karith
4 Ka'Tocs
1 Sho'Kar
1 Dag'Kar
4 Sho'Kovs

Which I think is a pretty OK fleet, but still gets many more losses than wins. I've tried swapping the Ka'Tocs for Var'Nics, but they just die too quickly against beams to be really worth taking (at least from my experience).

I've also tried:-

1 G'Lan
2 Ka'Tocs/1 Var'Nic
1 G'Karith
1 Sho'Kar
4 Sho'Kovs

1 G'Tal
1 Dag'Kar
2 Ka'Tocs/1 Var'Nic
1 Sho'Kar
4 Sho'Kovs

4 Ka'Tocs/2 Var'Nics
1 G'Karith
1 Dag'Kar
1 Sho'Kar
4 Sho'Kovs

1 G'Vrahn
1 Sho'Kar
4 Sho'Kovs

1 G'Vrahn
8 Sho'Kovs

2 Rongoths
2 G'Kariths
2 Thentus
2 Sho'Kars
(Good against Minbari, rubbish against almost everyone else)

So, does anyone see any gaping holes there, or am I just rubbish with the Narn and should I stick to using the EA, League, Centauri and ISA that I seem to win far more games with?
I woldnt say youre rubbish But I thin you are playing them Wrong. I Love my narn and they are by far m largest and bets fleet i have. I think all in total ive lost 4 games ever with narn. I regularly Beat up on Centuari (Ive never lost to them with a narn fleet) and the Ea too for that matter (Although i have lost to them once. The Key with the Narn is to completely and Utterly Wreck things at your max range and then when everything is pounded on and close to being Dead or Crippled Then have everything close range and get in the middle of everything(As we all know The Narn Bristle with guns everwhere) and blast away.
Destroyer of all things fanhead, undefeated with my narn against the Centauri.

Primary-Narn-(17 Arm Points)
Secondary-Minbari-(8 Arm Points)
Tertiary- ISA- (6 Arm Points)
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Tank
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Postby Tank » Sat May 03, 2008 10:31 pm

@ Dagkar

to be fair Jim has tried that but it just hasn't worked and with him failing to do huge damage at long range he has lost the mid range and even to an extent the short range duels he's ended up being forced into.

I feel that the Narn really aren't as competitive as the were before, I personally am not so concerend when facing them with an EA fleet (of any Era) at 5 raid.

Jim is a very capable player but really struggles to get a result with the Narn in our group with 2e
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Postby Humbaba » Sat May 03, 2008 10:52 pm

I have to say that I do feel that the Narn are a bit weak in 2E. Although they do have many dice, they are often unmodified dice which are far less effective then even TL or AP dice. I would not be against them nearly doubling the dice on their Pulse Cannons and Light Pulse Cannons in many cases. Their ships could also use a few more damage points IMO. This is the race that I have fought against the most and I can't help but feel that their "mass amounts" of weapons tend to not amount to very much, especially when combined with lower speeds and ranges making them hard to bring to target.
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Postby Rawwar » Sat May 03, 2008 11:43 pm

I feel the Narn are weak too.

Their mid range firepower is almost none existant & their short range stuff is pityful. The last short range duel I got involved in was with the Centari & I simply got hammered. I suffered from more crits than you could shake a wobbly stick at and had ships drifting about uslessly waiting for the better armed, faster, tighter turning Centari ships to deliver the coup de grace.

To do the job I'm having to resort to init sinking Sho'Kovs, Energy Mine Dag'Kars and some squadroning in the hope that I can nail a few ships at range before the enemy fleet closes in. However the fleets poor turning ability as a whole and the weakness of the Narn lower level ships means most of my opponents know to blow away my escorts before turning on the bigger stuff.

Once a Narn fleet has been out-flanked or god forbid been attacked from behind it's almost always time to call it a day because even their low level ships lack the manoverability to turn back on an enemy.

Personally I think the fleet is poor & certainly isn't aggressive enough to be Narn.
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Postby Da Boss » Sun May 04, 2008 8:53 am

The narn have good ships upto and including Raid and an excellent war level ship (better then the Centauri one) but suffer badly at Battle.

The GQ'uon and its variants are really not good enough - they are not even good damage soaks as they have barely more than the Primus (2pts dam IIRC?)

At the very least they need a 6AD beam...........perhaps more damage as well?

They have lots of guns at range 8 but alot of fleets ignore guns that are that short ranged..........for instance the true warships of the Glorious Republic. :D
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Postby Rawwar » Sun May 04, 2008 10:39 am

The G'Vrahn is the best ship in the Narn fleet period.

It's when you get down to raid & lower with the Narn that you have problems.

The Dag'Kar is a good ship but very static it might get one volley of E Mines off before the enemy take it straight out.

The G'Karith carries an Energy Mine that does no extra damage & no other meaningful firepower. The energy mine doesn't deal crits but boy do you get them back off your enemy. The G'Sten only has the twinn linked special trait and a max range of twelve inches, it's not even worth the space it takes up on the fleet list. Any player worth his salt knows Narn have E Mines so will avoid fighter heavy lists and the G'Karith deals too little damage to it's peers.

The Var'Nic is a good ship but because it is Bore Sighted it relies on Sho'Kovs as init sinks to allow it to line up all it's firepower against an opponent. So basically an opponent has to kill the Sho'Kovs and it's firepower becomes meaningless.

Yes the T'Loth and T'Rann can take lots of hits but if I was fighting the Narn I would take the other stuff out first then flank these & happily pound them into dust at my leasure.

At Skirmish level there are four ships that have only one 45% turn. This is suicide as they're just too easy to run rings around. The Ka'Toc and the Ka'Tan both rqire Bore Sight which again means you need those Sho'Kovs but even with them, once these ships have been out manoeuvred they're just waiting to die. Rongoth and Rothan both have reasonable firepower for the level but poor range and only one turn means you can get shot up coming in then out manoeuvred and finished off.

The T'Rakk has two 45% turns but compared to it's peers it's firepower is meaningless. It's supposed to, 'pack a heavy punch for a small ship.' No the Demos packs a heavy punch, the T'Rakk by comparison is a joke. Add to this that crits make all those extra hit point useless and the T'Rakk becomes a very poor choice.

So then we have the Thentus an ageing design being relegated to anti fighter support and light system duty! Really!! At Skirmish level just what ship would you replace this with?? It has bore sight so you need the Sho'Kovs AGAIN and it's range isn't great but it's clearly the best option the Narn have. Oh and it has two turns.

The Scout might have potential but do we really want to get that close with it? (15" beam) Have it swarmed with fighters etc for heavier armed ships to take out??

All in all at up to Raid I don’t think the Narn are that hot at all. The G’Quon/variants is very poor at Battle and there’s only one War choice.

I’m just very under-whelmed with the whole Narn experience and this is before we get into how other fleets can mass on one or two really good ships at low level that the Narn just can’t compete with.

But am I bitter?? Of course I'm Narn.
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Postby katadder » Sun May 04, 2008 11:14 am

why do you need sho'kov init sinks - thatst what t'loths/t'ranns are for as like you said people ignore them to a degree.
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Banichi
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Postby Banichi » Sun May 04, 2008 11:18 am

Ha, narns only exist in this game to be blown up by my lovely boys in the purple ships. :wink:
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Postby Rawwar » Sun May 04, 2008 11:20 am

why do you need sho'kov init sinks - thatst what t'loths/t'ranns are for as like you said people ignore them to a degree.
To force my opponents to move first so I can line my Bore Sight stuff up against something meaningful.
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Postby katadder » Sun May 04, 2008 11:42 am

if you line your boresight up against something less meaningful you will probably kill it giving you more chance next turn to get something meaningful. (everything is meaningful anyway, its all worth VPs and everything has weapons).
usually I will take out an enemys init sinks with my boresight weapons as then it seriously limits his manouvering.

if you go by the list i posted earlier I have 3 init sinks for lining up my ka'tocs. or 2 if I take a var'nic and this means I get to target some useful stuff.
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Postby Rawwar » Sun May 04, 2008 12:14 pm

To be fair if you played the people I do you wouldn't init sink any of them with that fleet list.

Also in this as in any game target priority is extremely important, a good opponent will force you to target what he wants you to. By having the init sinking Sho'Kovs you choose what you line up on, that's a big difference.

Also because you can get a lot of Sho'Kovs, that allows you to squadron some of your bigger hitters to get a more telling blow in against the enemy while still keeping the initiative.
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Postby katadder » Sun May 04, 2008 12:35 pm

well normally play tourneys with an 8 ship limit so multiple sho'kovs dont turn up.
and when do play our other narn player I pretty much ignore the little cutters as they cant do much anyway.

I didnt say would init sink your opponents, I talk about killing the init sinks as unlike t'loths most peoples init sinks die fairly quickly.
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Postby Rawwar » Sun May 04, 2008 1:05 pm

well normally play tourneys with an 8 ship limit so multiple sho'kovs dont turn up.
and when do play our other narn player I pretty much ignore the little cutters as they cant do much anyway.
Well to be fair due to your set up restrictions you have a different set of strategic requirements than I do. Not everyone will agree to the ship number limitations your group does if they think it'll hurt their fleet.

I might be tempted down the same route as you in the same circumstances however your T'Loths would still be crippled by crits long before they were destroyed, it's also lumbering. I'd be interested what you do against the Centari under such circumstances & how you combat the Demos?

Then there's the ISA :shock: :?:
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Postby katadder » Sun May 04, 2008 2:06 pm

dag'kar, stuck at back with t'loth escorts :D
the ka'tocs just hunt what they can.
to be honest, playing narn and against narn the ka'tocs are always my opponents 1st target as they die quite easily and take some fairly decent firepower with them.
against both centauri and ISA we also have 8 fighters which is more than they usually put out at 5 raid unless bringing a balvarin or an allied carrier in ISAs case.
Last edited by katadder on Sun May 04, 2008 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Da Boss » Sun May 04, 2008 2:19 pm

Given the quality of both the Centauri fighters and their carrier I woud have thought it was an excellent choice at 5pt raid.

The Avenger / Briovki for the same reason.

Plus they have reasonable guns, can soak damage and have the useful Command bonus.

My five pts raid has 10 fighters - 4 Razkis, 4 Sentris and 2 Rutarians - if Liati / 2 more Sentri if Primus................ :)
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Postby katadder » Sun May 04, 2008 2:32 pm

whats your 5 raid then if using a battle ship and a carrier? last 2 spent on demos?
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Postby Da Boss » Sun May 04, 2008 2:46 pm

my usual 5 pt raid

1-2pts - Liati / Primus
3pt - Balvarin
4pt - Demos x2
5pt - Maximus and Demos

Occasionally have dabbled with 5pt - Maximus, Kutai, 2x Haven

:D

1st edition:
1-2pts Primus
3pt Maximus x2 (Charge........)
4pt Maximus x2 (Charge............)
5pt Corvan x4 (Useful attack ship, Stealth, all round guns and a fighter - really too good :) )

:)

Oh and I once tried a Centauri Stealth fleet

Dargan and Corvans plus some Rutarians .........
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Postby noobdelux » Sun May 04, 2008 5:56 pm

well iv felt like my oponent havent anny problems beating me up with his narns.. their ok leave em be lol
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