The Future of BF Evo - and a Poll. . .

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.

What Direction for BF Evo?

1. Give us the game!
30
40%
2. Revise away - I want new kit!
26
35%
3. Go all out with a new game!
7
9%
4. Actually, I have a better idea. . .
12
16%
 
Total votes: 75
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Hiromoon
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Postby Hiromoon » Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:56 am

What I mean is, Jay, we knock off the 1st bank of Ireland, then drive all the way to Mongoose tower and give them 'investment capital' to revitalize the product line.
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Postby JayRaider » Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:02 am

Hiromoon wrote:What I mean is, Jay, we knock off the 1st bank of Ireland, then drive all the way to Mongoose tower and give them 'investment capital' to revitalize the product line.
:idea: :idea: OHHHHH i get it now! :D
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Postby MongooseMatt » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:31 am

JayRaider wrote:
To late.
The small base who were playing the game has been halved. The Pre-painted gamers are gone and won't come back.
Its all over. Its hard to accept. Mongoose have lost a fortune as have all the diehards who invested.
Time to face the most awful truth.
Well, this all depends on how you look at things. I'll go through your points in turn.

First off, in a very real sense, it is never too late. If there is a good game out, there, people will play it. Put another way, if we re-released BF Evo in five years time (just an example, mind!) with all the bells and whistles, it would stand on its own merit at the time.

By the same token, if we succeed in our ultimate goal of low-cost, high-quality and varied pre-paints, they will gain people's attention.

Mongoose has not lost a fortune - if we had proceeded, unchecked, with waves 4, 5 and 6 then, maybe, we would have. But we have enough sense to plug holes when they appear (which is why we are still here when so many other companies that started at the same time are not).

The diehards have not lost a fortune - their miniatures and games are just as valid today as they were yesterday (they did not suddenly break overnight). Added to that, we have no intention of leaving people high and dry - we never have. If players would lose their inhibitions about 'officialdom' (and I understand why the reluctance is there), then there is already more material available than many other games support. However, aside from that, BF Evo is too good a game for us to just drop, for a variety of reasons.

Now, some might decide they have 'had enough'. That is fine, we live in a wargaming democracy. It is now up to us to convince you back in the future, and produce an enduring game that is attractive to you. To this end, we will be dedicating ourselves.

A final thought: Not so long ago, people said the same things about Starship Troopers. Those players are now due to go through a rennaissance. There is no reason why the same cannot happen with BF Evo. None at all.
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Postby lastbesthope » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:51 am

msprange wrote: A final thought: Not so long ago, people said the same things about Starship Troopers. Those players are now due to go through a rennaissance. There is no reason why the same cannot happen with BF Evo. None at all.
So a list of second comings to watch for:

1) SST (On it's way)
2) BF: Evo
3) The great prophet Zarquon :lol:

LEt's just hope BF:Evo is a little quicker coming than Zarquon eh

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Postby MongooseMatt » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:59 am

Well, take a look at Planet Mongoose, and you'll get a gander of what is planned for this year. . .
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Postby Novembre » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:23 am

msprange wrote:If there is a good game out, there, people will play it. Put another way, if we re-released BF Evo in five years time (just an example, mind!) with all the bells and whistles, it would stand on its own merit at the time.
I've been a serious gamer for 20 years now, and I still own some pretty old stuff that I have not been playing in a while. So, please don't change the scale: when BFEvo eventually come back, my PLA army will still be here, waiting for reinforcements and opponents!
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Postby mikeg99 » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:49 am

msprange wrote:
The diehards have not lost a fortune - their miniatures and games are just as valid today as they were yesterday (they did not suddenly break overnight). Added to that, we have no intention of leaving people high and dry - we never have. If players would lose their inhibitions about 'officialdom' (and I understand why the reluctance is there), then there is already more material available than many other games support. However, aside from that, BF Evo is too good a game for us to just drop, for a variety of reasons.
The issue for me is that I was drawn to the game because of the prepaints. Now that Mongoose has dropped that aspect, I am no longer interested in the product. I still have what I bought throughout the release (and it is a lot), but I am stuck with only the 3 waves you decided to release. So in a sense, people like me have lost a fortune.
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Postby MongooseMatt » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:53 am

mikeg99 wrote:
The issue for me is that I was drawn to the game because of the prepaints. Now that Mongoose has dropped that aspect, I am no longer interested in the product. I still have what I bought throughout the release (and it is a lot), but I am stuck with only the 3 waves you decided to release. So in a sense, people like me have lost a fortune.
Sorry, my point was not clear - high quality, low cost and varied pre-paints are still very much the goal for us.
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Postby emperorpenguin » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:25 am

JayRaider wrote:
Think, Jay! Think! What time does the 1st Bank of Ireland open?
Who cares! We have atm's here too. :lol: :lol: :lol: .

which are always out of order! What is it with Irish ATMs? :x
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Postby Sgt. Scream » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:56 am

Read PLANET MONGOOSE. Seriously. :wink:
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Postby Stonehorse » Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:49 am

Just read the planet Mongoose article.

I really hope there is some truth in there. I know my last entry in this thread was deleted, and those who read it might think I take a perverse enjoyment out of Mongooses failures. That is simply not true.

I love the game systems that you guys produce. The game mechanics are simple, yet a well over due fresh breeze in the TTG market. I honestly hope that the bad name Mongoose has gained can be turned around.

I view Mongoose as Role-playing company first and foremost, who have ventured into the TTG market a few times, and have to date only one game that has continued to be well received and supported. ACTA.

I personally think that for Mongoose to do well in all their TTG systems they need to address the 'teething problems' they have. These I think are as follows:

1. Quality Control.

Some of the models that have been produced I'm afraid are of the miniature quality that was acceptable during the 90's. If you are unsure if a model will be well accepted in the market. Look at what other TTG companies are producing and use their level of quality as a way of judging. They are the competition in the market.

2. Support.

After a big announcement is made the support tends to drop off for the game system in question. Namely SST, what would be ideal is to make the announcement and still provide support for the system and ensuring that the support given will not be invalidated when the big announcement comes to light.

These 2 things are simple, within the abilities of Mongoose, and I strongly believe will do Mongoose the world of good.
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Postby dsfrankevo » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:24 pm

JayRaider wrote:Whatever the opinion of the gamers here at the forum the direction Mongoose would like to take BFE to is..... PROFITABILITY.
This game has failed because it didn't sell enough. (nevermind the reasons for now).
Thats the bottomline.

A re-launch with metal mini's at the same scale will satisfy the dedicated like me but it won't attract enough new gamers (again).
It will just lose Mongoose more money!
Wargamers who play in a modern setting will not play 1/64.
The Fantasy/Sci-fi hobby crowd aren't interested either.
So who is this relaunched metal mini's game aimed for?
The diehards Evo fans will buy in.
Thats not enough!

Lets say within a few weeks Mongoose decides to go metal mini's continuation or re-launch.
How long before the mini's hit the streets?
6-9 months? Probably more.
To late.
The small base who were playing the game has been halved. The Pre-painted gamers are gone and won't come back.
Its all over. Its hard to accept. Mongoose have lost a fortune as have all the diehards who invested.
Time to face the most awful truth.
Hiromoon wrote:Can we get Jay's title changed to either 'Prophet-o-Doom' or 'That Crazy Guy Who Stands on the Corner and Yells Doom'?
Sure we could - but that won't change the fact that he's RIGHT :!: :!: :!: :!:


I'm all for restarting production of pre-painted minis - I'll do my part with my wallet

- I don't care if you put out the proposed Waves or come up with new units

Sooner is better than later

& I don't think there is enough support for unpainted minis to be a viable product line

I do think it will have to take a commitment of more than a wave or 2 of new releases to convince the cynics out there that the game is really back
Last edited by dsfrankevo on Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Hiromoon » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:30 pm

Actually, it'd help if he were right. But you're already set in your opinion so all I can do is taunt you and that's about it.

Edit
To clarify, it's only dead if we accept that it's dead. I've put too much work into it to let it pass, so frankly, as far as I'm concerned, it's still going. I'm like that Marines and their stubborn doggedness with the V-22 Osprey. And I'm not the only one who's done hard work in supporting this stuff. Look at Sgt.Scream and Pietia. Now, while I know what we've done won't be enough to get Mongoose to bring back the miniatures line immediately, we can keep the Evolution rules on people's minds (apparently, even the detractors love the rules, so that's something to build upon). Get your helmet back on and help us, Frank.
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Postby dsfrankevo » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:03 pm

Hiromoon wrote:Actually, it'd help if he were right. But you're already set in your opinion so all I can do is taunt you and that's about it.
A reread of my post may be in order.....you were too quick on the draw and got to it before I edited it
Hiromoon wrote:To clarify, it's only dead if we accept that it's dead.
You know those very words have been typed by me repeatedly on Evo Command

We all know I'm a fan of the game if not in love with the manufacturer -

despite my cynical nature and my vocally posted disappointments -

I really really hope the BF Evo ship can be righted and sail smoothly into the waters of both financial and fan based success

I'm afraid to admit it but - Matt's new post on Planet Mongoose gives me fresh hope

I know I've teased alot of the more hopeful of us that they are Charlie Brown & Mongoose is Lucy with the football but....

..... darned if I'm not tempted to trust 'em and line up behind the ball

Cautiously optimistic and waiting for more PRE-PAINTED minis & the WWII rules (for my already painted stuff)

I may even change my Icon and sig block to pics w/ Mongoose minis :shock:


It does bum me out that there have only been 55 votes in the pole - doesn't speak well of the size of the fan base at this point :cry:
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Postby Hiromoon » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:18 pm

One of us! One of us! :D

Sorry Frank... it's just that I read a lot of crap from other places and it builds up.

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Postby dsfrankevo » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:23 pm

No sweat Ben,

Last time I drove one of those I was a brand 2LT and they'd only let me go about 5mph .... GRRrrr

In my M577 - though I put the pedal to the metal - not that it is anything like the same

See you on EvoCommand.com

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Postby Eisho » Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:03 am

msprange wrote:The diehards have not lost a fortune - their miniatures and games are just as valid today as they were yesterday (they did not suddenly break overnight).

Matt,

If you can stand a little more polite criticism…

I think this attitude that I have seen expressed by you whenever a line begins to falter is something that you seriously misunderstand. There will always be the guys who are willing to accept that their minis are ‘still valid’ but by far, as evidenced by people on this board and what I presume is a mass exodus of people/customers previously interested in the game, the majority do not accept this.

You are attempting to compete with the likes of GW for my time, money and interest and, whatever other differences exist, you cannot win me over with incomplete lines. I don’t want incomplete lines with ‘still valid’ minis. I want complete lines that allow interesting variation in gameplay. But it’s more than that. You are now appearing to be in the habit of not completing your lines.

I think this is an attitude that you should spend time rethinking.

Cheers,

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Postby Hiromoon » Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:41 am

Wait...what? You mean the "majority" " did not accept this because they thought their miniatures were no longer valid? :shock:

Where are these people, I have swamp land I want to sell them...
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Postby Eisho » Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:15 am

Hiromoon wrote:Wait...what? You mean the "majority" " did not accept this because they thought their miniatures were no longer valid? :shock:

Where are these people, I have swamp land I want to sell them...
:?:

I mean the majority don't accept the explanation that their figures - as part of an incomplete product line - are still valid. Matt has long argued, and the same is true in this case, that the minis themselves are still minis. Still what you paid for. That's fair enough and can't be disputed, but my point, which I also made in my original post on this topic, is that I do not feel this is enough; in this case it doesn't represent true value for money.

Put another way: How many people, now knowing the mini product line will be discontinued, will still go out and buy whatever stock they can? Some will, sure, but I think a majority of people won't. The reason is not because the minis are suddenly any less than they were a few months ago, but because I believe most wargamers want a complete product line.

Or another way: Knowing that only the first three waves would ever be released, how many of those initial customers would still have bought into BFE in the first place? Again, much fewer I suspect. Possibly almost none.

After Mighty Armies crashed and burned, but before it was sold off, how many boxes did Mongoose sell?

Sorry, but Matt's argument is in my opinion very weak. Gamers are not just buying the minis. They are buying the promise that the product line will be completed and others will have the opportunity to buy the same minis and thus generate a vibe and more opponents.

Cheers,

Eisho
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Postby Sgt. Scream » Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:34 am

Eisho has a good point here. I feel the same like he does about the discontinue of the line :cry:
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