Player fighting more than one batter per Campaign Turn?

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Pavlov Grenadier
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Player fighting more than one batter per Campaign Turn?

Postby Pavlov Grenadier » Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:14 pm

Read this on another thread and wanted to clarify:
Locutus9956 wrote:Erm just a small comment about turn 3, Ill have to check if its changed in 2nd ed but in 1st Ed campaign rules, if a force is already attacking a target it cannot contest another, so in turn 3 with the narns already attacking the jumpgate they couldnt then constest the centauri's attack on the neutral target.....
So is that true? If Player one attacks target x, player one then cannot intercerpt player 2 when he goes for target y? What about the opposite?

ex. Player 1 intercetps player 2 at target x (player 2 won initiative that turn). Now player 1 has his turn and wants to attacke target y. Can he do that?

Thanks!
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nekomata fuyu
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Postby nekomata fuyu » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:36 am

It doesn't actually say that you can only make one occupation attempt per turn, but I'm fairly certain that that's the intent. Given that you intercept an opponent's occupation attempt a location by declaring that you're also choosing to occupy the location, you won't be able to intercept and make your own attack if you're playing the rules as intended rather than the rules as written.
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Postby Pavlov Grenadier » Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:03 am

Thanks Neko.

Thats interesting. Our group has always played it that you can intercept as often as is presented to you and still make your "attack". It makes for some interesting decsions since your fleet can only be spread so thin.

I would like to hear how others are playing as well.
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Postby Court Jester » Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:23 am

IOt is worded in a very ambiguous way in the rules... Our campaign started with everyone attacking 1 target but intercepting as many as need be...

Then we realised that other prople played it as attacked one target and one target only...
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Postby Gunnvaldr » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:36 am

Well how our group handles it is by designating task forces.

so if in the aftermath of player A Interception of Player B's forces, when any ship used during that engagement, can not participate in the following player A's turn to attempt contestion. this represents the fleet establishing 2 or more task force that sail out to carry out diffferent objectives.

One thing I notice playined with these (house?) rules, it taxes your fleet in repairs and replacement, makes the capaign shorter and help keep in check large fleets.
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Postby nekomata fuyu » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:58 am

Another thing to note about the rules as written is that once a player makes an attack, only those after him/her in the initiative order get given the choice to intercept. This would mean that in the first campaign turn, the initiative "winner" could only take control of one location, whilst the initiative "loser" could potentially take control of as many locations as there are players.
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Postby stryve » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:10 am

Well, what if successfuly contesting meant that neither side gets the target?
Dunno how viable that would be, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
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Postby Gunnvaldr » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:21 am

area denial? hrm that would be cool to try out in a campaign if you set any contest ment just said.
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Postby Chernobyl » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:23 am

the campaign rules are pretty clear that you can only make one attack per campaign turn.
you CAN wind up fighting many more battles than one per turn if the other players decide to make thair attacks against different planets you control - in this case your defending, not attacking.
Intercepting another attack come if you're both trying to attack the same location, IIRC, usually an unoccupied one, else there would be a 3-way battle...

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Postby Pavlov Grenadier » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:48 pm

Chernobyl wrote:the campaign rules are pretty clear that you can only make one attack per campaign turn.
you CAN wind up fighting many more battles than one per turn if the other players decide to make thair attacks against different planets you control - in this case your defending, not attacking.
Intercepting another attack come if you're both trying to attack the same location, IIRC, usually an unoccupied one, else there would be a 3-way battle...

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Hi Chern! Where is that written (only attack once per turn)? Thats not meant as a challenge, Im just curious. I just re-read the Select Target section on page 80-81 and didn’t see a reference to only attack/intercept once per turn. (I could have missed it since I am work and read it quickly :lol: ) Obviously, you only get one chance to select a target to attack but we cant find anything that says you can only intercept once and that “interception” also counts as your "attack" as well.

Having said that, the one sentence on page 80 that says once a player intercepts, they move to the “next phase” (aka. choose a battle) could be interpreted as “your turn is over”???

Am I missing another section somewhere that addresses that or are we just dense? :oops:

For those have played it both ways, what do you prefer? Big change in dynamics only getting one attack/intercept? Would like to hear.

Thanks!

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Postby Locutus9956 » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:20 pm

How it works basically is quite simple. If you attack an unocupied target everyone who has not yet declared an attack in initiative order has the option to use their attack to effectively ALSO attack that neutral target and thus fight for it. Basically in a turn you can either attack an occupied target, attack an unocupied target or contest another players attempt to attack an ocupied target but you can only do ONE of these (and only once, once youve intercepted one player you its only the players who havent done anything yet who can choose to contest other targets).

You CAN however as noted end up fighting lots of battles in a turn if multiple people attack your owned targets. Basically you will never fight more than two battles against the same oppoent in a single turn and the only way to do THAT is if you both attack a target already belonging to each other.
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Postby katadder » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:35 pm

try to ignore the intercepting thing in campaigns, there is no such thing (apart from trade routes). basically you are choosing to attack a target, if its unoccupied and 2 people attack it then they fight to win it but neither has intercepted the other they are just fighting over it.
trade routes again its 2 people attacking it but the 1st person is the attacker and the 2nd is defender and get relevant bonuses for winning.
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Postby Locutus9956 » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:41 pm

An example of a couple of typical campaign turns:

Theres a system with 4 unocupied dead worlds (yes its a crap system and not technically possible to generate by the normal rules but its just an example ;)) Hypothetically, lets call them world 1, world 2, world 3 and world 4. There are 4 players, Narn, Minbari, EA and Centauri who roll initiative and end up in that order.

First the Narn player chooses to attack world 1. The minbari player has the option to intercept him, he passes, the EA player then has the option to intercept him and chooses to, the Centauri dont get the option to intercept because the EA player has already chosen to. The EA and Narn player will fight a battle with the winner gaining that target.

Now the Minbari player gets to pick a target, he chooses to attack world. The Narn dont get a chance to intercept as they are already attacking a target. The EA player doesnt get a chance to intercept as he is already intercepting another target. The Centauri now get the chance to intercept but choose not to.

The EA player would now get to pick a target but cant since hes already intercepting another attack with his move. So the Centauri now get to pick a target. They cant pick world 1 or 2 since both have already been target by other players (and they chose not to intercept world 2 when they had the option) so they attack world 3. Since all other players are already attacking a target or intercepting noone can oppose this. (It should be noted that whilst it might seem from this example to be an advantage to go last in the first campaign turn but bear in mind in a proper system the all the good targets will get attacked first so if you go last, whilst noone will be able to stop you, the target you take unopposed will most likely be a big pile of arse....)

Everything is now resolved, lets say the Narn player wins the battle so the Narns take world 1, the Minbari take world 2, and the Centauri take world 3. World 4 is still unocupied.

Now we come to turn 2.

For the sake of simplicity lets assume they roll the same initiative
order.

First off the Narn choose to attack the remaining unocupied target. The Minbari pass on intercepting, as do the EA, but the Cenatauri are determined to deny the narns an early lead and choose to intercept.

The Minbari then get to choose a target. They cant attack worlds 2 or 4 (since they own 2 and chose not to intercept the attack on 4) so they decide to attack World 1 since the narn will already have some of their forces commited to attacking world 4. Since the target is alreayd owned and has a defender there is no option to intercept.

The EA player now chooses to attack the Minbari held world 2.

The Centauri do not get to choose a target this turn since they are already intercepting the narn attack on world 4.

In the end phase the Narns must fight 2 battles, 1 to contest world 4 and one to defend world 1.

The Minbari must fight 2 battles, 1 to attack world 1 and one to defend world 2.

The EA only fight one battle to attack world 2.

The Centauri only fight one battle to contest world 4.

.....I can go on if anyone is still not clear on how it works but I think that would all be pretty clear now!
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Postby katadder » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:48 pm

you have really complicated matters there locutus.
simpler to say 4 dead worlds with people winning init in your order.
narn choose to attack world 1
minbari choose to attack world 2
ea choose to attack world 1
centauri choose to attack world 3

narn and ea fight over world 1, the other 2 races take their worlds.

there is no intercepting ever, theres just attacks, just sometimes your attacks can coincide with someone elses when attacking an unoccupied system.

to take your turn 2 example
narn attack world 4
minbari attack world 1 (narn owned)
ea attack world 2 (minbari owned)
centauri attack world 4

narn fight the centauri for possession of world 4, minbari attack narn for world 1, ea attack minbari for world 2.

there is no intercepting, just attacks.
simple matter to remember is you can only ever make one attack per turn but can be attacked once per world you own.
only unowned worlds can be attacked by 2 factions asthis produces a fight between them, but then a 3rd faction cannot attack.
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Postby Locutus9956 » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:53 pm

you can say 'theres no intercepting' all you like but thats not what the rules say!

and it does make quite a difference since all remaining players get the chance to do so before any one else chooses to attack fresh targets.

Basically in your example below if the EA want to attack world 1 and contest it theyd have to decide to do so before the minbari declare where theyre attacking.
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Postby Chernobyl » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:42 pm

Locutus gives a pretty good description. BZ! :lol:

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Postby zulu01 » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:08 pm

I would really like one person to quote an actual rules passage that says you can't be involved in more than one battle per turn. I have read the rules through twice and can't find it.
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Postby nekomata fuyu » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:31 pm

You can be involved in more than one battle easily if other players decide to start attacking locations that you control from previous turns. I'm guessing however that you mean:
"I would really like one person to quote an actual rules passage that says you can't attack more than once per turn."

There isn't one as far as I can tell. That's why I made the distinction between Rules as Written (RaW), and Rules as Intended (RaI). What Chernobyl and Locutus are describing are RaI.
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Postby Greg Smith » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:23 pm

I would say it is implicit.

The player who won initiative can only select a target. If it is unoccupied, the next player may intercept, and so on.

"Once it has been decided what the player who won initiative is doing, the next player in initiative order choses a Strategic Target and follows the same process."

Now at no point does the first player get to intercept players who scored lower than him. Unless the second player gets to perform two action (intercept player 1 and chose his own target) and the third player gets to do three (intercept player 1, intercept player 2 and chose his own target), and so on - the rules imply there is only a single action per player.

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But I'll agree that that section of the rules could certainly be clearer.
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Postby Sulfurdown » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:58 pm

First - yes, this is one of the single worst rules sections in the book. It's caused a lot of confusion about how the turn sequence goes and who battles what and when and how much who knows when since at least SFoS if not earlier. The entire section has to be kind of read through and balanced in one's mind in a very zen fashion to make it work.

Second -
The player who won the Initiative phase selects any one Strategic Target that he does not currently possess. If this target
belongs to another player, he will move to the next phase, fighting a battle with that player’s fleet.

If it is currently unoccupied, the next player in the initiative order may decide to also occupy it, in which case, they both move to the next phase in order to fight a battle.

Once it has been decided what the player who won the initiative is doing, the next player in initiative order chooses a Strategic Target and follows the same process. He may not choose a Strategic Target that has already been nominated by previous player in this turn.
So you have your initiative order - when a player figures out what they are doing (attacking a target or trying to 'intercept' an attack) he/she is pulled from the initative order and moved to the next phase. Initiative then falls to the person at the top of the list. That means that you can only choose to "intercept" one player per turn (or less if you are first) as you'll get pulled from the initiative list once you are committed to the 'attack' - and must do it before it passes to the next person in the initiative list or you've lost your chance.

Once everybody is moved to the next phase you determine who is fighting whom (attacks, intercepts, defense) and with what conditions - then start fighting it out.

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