Point Value, just curious

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
Hans Olo
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Postby Hans Olo » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:58 am

4 Olympus Gunship vs any Battle choice from EA!
Or 2 Var'Nic vs'Quan ore G'Lan.
I definitely know what I would take.
Mongoose had the chance to make the big ships to be worth their level, but they again failed. :?
As Lone Gunman pointed out especially the new Beam rules and (still) the crit table seriously disencourages you from taking larger ships.
What makes it even worse is that it is so obvious that you can't miss it.
First Mongoose should get the ships right, maybe a fine tuning with point values wouldn't be necessary anymore then.
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Postby tneva82 » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:00 pm

Delthos wrote:But a straight conversion to points like that doesn't fix the inherent problems with the PL system. You still wind up with a certain number of points in lower PL ships being more valuable than an equivalent number of points in higher PL ships. It would require modifying the points further as some ships in the same PL are obviously more valuable than others.
And point costs have it's own inherited flaws. End result: Both creates equally unbalanced games :wink:

Might just as well use FAP's then as they do something points can't do. Equaly bad choises but FAP's has unique advantage to speak for itself.
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Postby Ripple » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:38 pm

The sad thing is that the PL system does not do anything points can't do right now. We're only using it because that's how the game started. Incremental changes under a PL system to look for balance are almost impossible, see the number of new white stars that have come along to see the issue. Especially in game where you can only bump stuff by full points on a d6. Huge swings. Point systems allow much finer gradation.

Sort of like adjusting a faucet, do you want a screw in the handle that can give you anything from a trickle to a rush, or a button that takes you from zero to full force. Endless variation of heat to cold...of six prebuilt steps.

Just saying we're hearing a lot of points don't mean balance...no one is making an argument that it does, only that it is easier to adjust.

We're hearing PL means faster easier building (in part cause no fiddly options)...except it isn't faster due to breakdowns and depending on how you look at it either won't have that kind of fiddly options or already does (EA missiles, fighter choices).

Ripple
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Postby KJ » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:37 pm

One of the benefits of having a point system over the PL system is that you don't have to re-design a ship's capabilities every time something seems to be out of whack. Using Ripple's faucet: if it's leaking, you can [a] replace a gasket (change the point value) or replace the entire faucet (change the ship to fit a PL).

I know more than a few people who are very unhappy with changes to their fleet's ships and, as a result, refuse to play this game anymore, in part due to the models they've purchased being changed, downgraded, or STILL not worth taking in the game. They're not willing to keep spending more money on their fleets when they have no idea what the next iteration of them is going to be like (and a couple of them have likened this to GW-style revisionism for the sake of selling models).
Sometimes ya gotta roll the hard 6.
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Postby Keith » Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:52 pm

Lone Gunman wrote:I didn't though that this thread coudl get so large. :shock:
You should see some of the earlier threads on the subject!


From my persepective is that a perfect system is impossible. The relative value of a ship is dependant on the opposition.

As an illustrationWhen fighting the Minbari (at least at battle level and above) there is little value in haveing a hull value of 6 (almost all their weapons are Beam or mini-beam). In most situations the hull score is extremmely relevent to the effectiveness of a ship but not if you are fighting Minbari.

It would be lunacy to try to develop a system to accomodate this because of its complexity. However without such a system there will always be inequalitie.

This contributes some variety to the and allows it to continually challenge.

In conclusion I believe that significant changes to the Priority system are unlikely to enhance the game experience.
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Tolwyn
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Postby Tolwyn » Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:37 am

Sadly I have agree with LG concerning the large ship matter.
Even if the large iconic ships are there, there is no reason to use as two smaller ships have far more firepower and could take more damage then one large cruiser.

I see no special faults in the new Beam Rules as it tends to be more dependand on luck and better roles. Usually I get no more shots out of them as under the old rules.

The most concerning thing for me is, as discribed above, the inbalance between the larger and smaller ships as the small ones now tend to dominate games. There should definitly be a change in balance.

A change in the point split could change this:
perhaps 1 Raid = 1 Skirmish + 1 Patrol ship which looks fair in my eye
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Postby Lone Gunman » Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:15 am

Hm, my personal point value would be, taking raid as standard:

patrol = 50 points

skirmish = 75 points

--> raid = 100 points

battle = 150 points

war = 200 points

arma = 250 points

In effect, the defaul level always costs 100 points per ship, going lower one level frees 25 points, going up costs 50. I'll test ths breakdown some time soon and see how it works.
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Postby Kadorak » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:58 am

In terms of overpowering smaller ships, it looks like the beam changes would be a big part of that too. The balancing factor against hordes of small ships in 1e was that SAP beams could eat a hull 4+ ship in one shot. Now low hull is not penalized near so much, while high hulls mean less against one major class of weapons, which now has plenty of chances to get crits against high-hull ships and render them worthless.

Edit: Obviously the exception to hull score serving as a barrier to swarm fleets was high-hull low PL ships, like the Drazi, but those fleets seemed intended as swarm fleets in the first place.
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Postby katadder » Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:07 pm

KJ wrote: I know more than a few people who are very unhappy with changes to their fleet's ships and, as a result, refuse to play this game anymore, in part due to the models they've purchased being changed, downgraded, or STILL not worth taking in the game. They're not willing to keep spending more money on their fleets when they have no idea what the next iteration of them is going to be like (and a couple of them have likened this to GW-style revisionism for the sake of selling models).
most the fleets got minor changes. mainly to ships that never saw use so they were changed to allow them to be seen more. hardly any ships got downgraded (bimith to name one) and no ships got removed. the centauri had a complete change in style but seeing the number of guys taking these at the tourney yesterday i would say most people are happy with them now so not exactly anywhere near GWs revisionism (where they even remove entire units etc).
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Postby KJ » Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:25 pm

katadder wrote: most the fleets got minor changes. mainly to ships that never saw use so they were changed to allow them to be seen more. hardly any ships got downgraded (bimith to name one) and no ships got removed. the centauri had a complete change in style but seeing the number of guys taking these at the tourney yesterday i would say most people are happy with them now so not exactly anywhere near GWs revisionism (where they even remove entire units etc).
Maybe, but they've been playing since the first iteration of 1e, and have seen more than a few changes to units since the first fleet book. Also, maybe you should look at your books again - MANY ships were removed from respective fleet lists; some of those ships could have been made viable choices with a point system (instead of Mongoose saying, "They don't exist; they never existed; this has always been your fleet list")[/1984off]

That you disagree with their sentiments doesn't make their complaints any less valid, nor will it bring them back to the gaming table. From my experience (which is obviously different than your tourney experience), "most people" don't even want to bother with this game anymore. I used to have close to a dozen opponents locally; now I have only two that will play this game (though the others are more than willing to play a number of other games).
Sometimes ya gotta roll the hard 6.
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Postby No. 1 Bear » Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:00 pm

Lone Gunman wrote:Hm, my personal point value would be, taking raid as standard:

patrol = 50 points

skirmish = 75 points

--> raid = 100 points

battle = 150 points

war = 200 points

arma = 250 points

In effect, the defaul level always costs 100 points per ship, going lower one level frees 25 points, going up costs 50. I'll test ths breakdown some time soon and see how it works.
Just try 5 hermes vs a Victory
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