Blue Stars

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
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lastbesthope
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Postby lastbesthope » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:36 pm

David, Anla Shok' wrote: Ok. Sorry, I am not following your logic. The Blue Star description doesn't imply that, it states that you may go into and out of hyperspace.
Ok, I'll try one more time.

THe Blue Star rules that the Blue Star may make one entry point into hyperspace and entry point out of hyperspace (into realspace) in the same battle/game/scenario.

However, nothing in the Blue Star rules state that it can start on the table, enter hyperspace and then return to realspace later in the same game, the rules on tactical withdrawals state that any entry into hyperspace is a tactical withdrawal unless entry into hyperspace is a victory condition for the scenario being played.

I suppose therefore that if the scenario being played did have a Victory Condition of entering hyperspace, then you could possibly interpret the rules to allow a bluestar to reenter the battle after having entered hyperspace in those cases but in general it would not be allowed to do so.

Any clearer? I suspect not unfortunaely, I'm not overly good at explaining these things.

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nekomata fuyu
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Postby nekomata fuyu » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:36 pm

Where does it say anything in the Blue Star rules to suggest that they're an exception to the hyperspace rules though?
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Postby scorpioni » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:39 pm

nowhere as explained 5 times in this thread
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Postby David, Anla Shok' » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:39 pm

lastbesthope wrote:
David, Anla Shok' wrote: Ok. Sorry, I am not following your logic. The Blue Star description doesn't imply that, it states that you may go into and out of hyperspace.
Ok, I'll try one more time.

THe Blue Star rules that the Blue Star may make one entry point into hyperspace and entry point out of hyperspace (into realspace) in the same battle/game/scenario.

However, nothing in the Blue Star rules state that it can start on the table, enter hyperspace and then return to realspace later in the same game, the rules on tactical withdrawals state that any entry into hyperspace is a tactical withdrawal unless entry into hyperspace is a victory condition for the scenario being played.

I suppose therefore that if the scenario being played did have a Victory Condition of entering hyperspace, then you could possibly interpret the rules to allow a bluestar to reenter the battle after having entered hyperspace in those cases but in general it would not be allowed to do so.

Any clearer? I suspect not unfortunaely, I'm not overly good at explaining these things.

LBH
I see where you are at now. You are looking for or requiring a scenario hook to permit the Blue Star to use this special ability. And I am not seeing a need for this. That is our only difference in this. No worrys. ;)
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Postby David, Anla Shok' » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:41 pm

neko wrote:Where does it say anything in the Blue Star rules to suggest that they're an exception to the hyperspace rules though?
Oh, the statement that they can leave and reenter the battlefield. Pretty straightforward really. Unfortunate for us that few rules sets feel the need to state when something is an exception to a rule. It would make life so much easier. ;>
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Postby scorpioni » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:53 pm

Well that's why wargamers use the RAW (rules as written) ;) if it doesn't say you can, you can't.

ONLY if it says you CAN, then you can, otherwise you can't :p

EDIT: in addtion they rely on FAQs (yes this is a gentle push :D )
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Postby lastbesthope » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:55 pm

David, Anla Shok' wrote:
neko wrote:Where does it say anything in the Blue Star rules to suggest that they're an exception to the hyperspace rules though?
Oh, the statement that they can leave and reenter the battlefield.
There is no such statement.

The blue star rules state that it can create on entry point into hyperspace and on exit point into hyperspace in the same game. That is a different thing entirely.

If it said it could create a hyperspace entry point THEN a hyperspace exit point in the same game then that would mean they could leave and reenter the battlefield, but it doesn't say that.

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Postby David, Anla Shok' » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:38 pm

lastbesthope wrote:
David, Anla Shok' wrote:
neko wrote:Where does it say anything in the Blue Star rules to suggest that they're an exception to the hyperspace rules though?
Oh, the statement that they can leave and reenter the battlefield.
There is no such statement.

The blue star rules state that it can create on entry point into hyperspace and on exit point into hyperspace in the same game. That is a different thing entirely.

If it said it could create a hyperspace entry point THEN a hyperspace exit point in the same game then that would mean they could leave and reenter the battlefield, but it doesn't say that.

LBH
An "exit point into hyperspace"? Your keyboard is having problems similar to mine it seems.. ;) Here again, is what is stated in the fleet book..
* The Blue Star may create up to two jump points in a battle, though these must be an entry into
hyperspace and an exit out – it may not create two entries or two exits in the same battle.
This seems to be pretty self evident. Two jump points may be created, one must be an entry into hyperspace, the other must be an exit out. Can't do two of either. And, that it may create two jump points, one of each, in a battle. I don't know how it can be determined to be otherwise.
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Postby nekomata fuyu » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:11 pm

What is self-evident is exactly what it says: that you can make a single entry jump point, and a single exit jump point.
It does not say "You may ignore the hyperspace rules for the jump into hyperspace". It does not say "You may make the jump into hyperspace before making a jump out of hyperspace".
This is not a mere case of "It doesn't say that you can, therefore you can't". This is a case of "It doesn't say that you can and other rules say that you can't, therefore you can't".
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Postby David, Anla Shok' » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:21 pm

neko wrote:What is self-evident is exactly what it says: that you can make a single entry jump point, and a single exit jump point.
It does not say "You may ignore the hyperspace rules for the jump into hyperspace". It does not say "You may make the jump into hyperspace before making a jump out of hyperspace".
This is not a mere case of "It doesn't say that you can, therefore you can't". This is a case of "It doesn't say that you can and other rules say that you can't, therefore you can't".
Let's not be pedantic. What would be the point of doing the above if it were not an exception to the rule?
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We are Anla Shok. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. "David. From nowhere in particular. Shok'Na, Captain. I'm looking for something."
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Postby nekomata fuyu » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:27 pm

So that you can jump into the battle, make an attack run, then leave.
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Postby David, Anla Shok' » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:33 pm

neko wrote:So that you can jump into the battle, make an attack run, then leave.
Nice idea. It never says that you can to it in that order though I assume that it is so. Oh for the old Squad Leader and SFB model. ;)
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We are Anla Shok. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. "David. From nowhere in particular. Shok'Na, Captain. I'm looking for something."
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Postby nekomata fuyu » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:54 pm

Aye, it doesn't. The difference is that there aren't any other rules that say that you can't ;)
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Postby Keith » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:57 pm

The way I intrepreted this rule was that it allowed a Blue Star to jump into a battle if allowed by the scenario (an option available to any ship with the jump point trait) and then jump out again. Note this second jump, allowed in 1st Ed, is now no longer allowed for other vessels.

I considered this to be of little tactical use. (Note to self: Look up recon run to see if there is an application here).

The option of jumping out then in are not precluded by the Blue Star notes. However, the rules on withdrawing do prevent such a action (once a ship has withdrawn it may not return to the battlefield and as LBH has stated once a ship enters hyperspace is has withdrawn).

In Rule Lawyer Mode
The rules are not contradictory. Those on withdraing just preclude (in a rather long wided way) one possible use of the Blue Stars' ability. I doubt this option was considered in when they were penned. A rules master posting on this would provide definitive answer.
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Postby David, Anla Shok' » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:10 pm

Keith wrote:The way I intrepreted this rule was that it allowed a Blue Star to jump into a battle if allowed by the scenario (an option available to any ship with the jump point trait) and then jump out again. Note this second jump, allowed in 1st Ed, is now no longer allowed for other vessels.

I considered this to be of little tactical use. (Note to self: Look up recon run to see if there is an application here).

The option of jumping out then in are not precluded by the Blue Star notes. However, the rules on withdrawing do prevent such a action (once a ship has withdrawn it may not return to the battlefield and as LBH has stated once a ship enters hyperspace is has withdrawn).

In Rule Lawyer Mode
The rules are not contradictory. Those on withdraing just preclude (in a rather long wided way) one possible use of the Blue Stars' ability. I doubt this option was considered in when they were penned. A rules master posting on this would provide definitive answer.
I concur with this last sentence... time for a FAQ ruling! Summon the oracle!
Regards,
We are Anla Shok. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. "David. From nowhere in particular. Shok'Na, Captain. I'm looking for something."
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Postby lastbesthope » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:17 pm

David, Anla Shok' wrote: Let's not be pedantic. What would be the point of doing the above if it were not an exception to the rule?
Regards,
It's given because it is an exception to a rule, just not the rule you think it'san exception to.

It is an exception to the rules given on P.26 an 27 that once a ship has created a jump point, in either direction, it cannot create another jump point for the rest of the battle.

Anyway, I'll ask Matthew if he can stop by and rule on this one.

LBH
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Postby David, Anla Shok' » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:30 pm

Anyway, I'll ask Matthew if he can stop by and rule on this one.

LBH[/quote]

Thanks!
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We are Anla Shok. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. "David. From nowhere in particular. Shok'Na, Captain. I'm looking for something."
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Postby lastbesthope » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:34 pm

Don't thank me until we get an answer out of him :lol:

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Postby David, Anla Shok' » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:39 pm

lastbesthope wrote:Don't thank me until we get an answer out of him :lol:

LBH
Why not? Knowledge is good. I begin to demo the game in a week and I'd rather not pass on bad info if I can help it. While I may hold on to a point of discussion for the sake of logic and common sense I am not a rules lawyer who holds on to a point "just because". So, a definitive answer in the Supreme Forum Court will be appreciated.
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We are Anla Shok. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. "David. From nowhere in particular. Shok'Na, Captain. I'm looking for something."
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Postby MongooseMatt » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:55 am

lastbesthope wrote:
It is an exception to the rules given on P.26 an 27 that once a ship has created a jump point, in either direction, it cannot create another jump point for the rest of the battle.
This is correct.
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