Taking War level ships in Raid fleets.

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big-gazza
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Taking War level ships in Raid fleets.

Postby big-gazza » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:06 am

Hi,
just curious to see if anyone takes War level ships in raid level fleets?
Could be a good cheap way to get a fleet running and be a bit different to play. Also good to paint only a couple of ships.

How about
White Star Carrier, White Star
Octurion and 2 x maximus
Sharlin and Ashinta
Poseidon and Hyperion

Would it make or a good game or would the big ship dominate the game?

Would it have a chance in a tourny?

Just a thought

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Burger
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Postby Burger » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:10 am

Generally a big ship will lose to a swarm, every time. The crits will cripple it. Although 2e has improved the big ship's chances of repairing crits, they still affect it for one turn... and they have also made swarms more powerful by changing the FAP splitting rules. You also have a massive initiative sinking disadvantage. There are exceptions though, the WS Carrier plus a few Blue Stars may do OK.
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Postby Lord David the Denied » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:11 am

Triggy uses the Octurion and two Maximi fleet at 5 raid. I wouldn't do it for most races. Maybe Minbari so I could get a Sharlin on the table.

To be fair, you'd be raped in a tournament by most swarm fleets. You'd be easy to target with boresights so EA, Narn, Drazi, etc could hammer you, you'd be out-manouevred easily and face attacks from multiple directions and weak arcs, and you could be combat-killed with a critical hit or two fairly quickly.

As a fun, one-off game I'd say go for it, but generally speaking, best avoided.
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Postby Da Boss » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:11 am

hmm interesting

If Centauri - may have gone for Octurion, Maximus and Demos (or Kutai, 2x haven) :)

A using a Battle level ship in tournament -may have considered the above but stupid stand just snapped in my Octurion
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Postby inq101 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:36 am

I've done this a couple of times in a campaign. It's never won me the game but the big ship can oftain do enough damage before escaping to seriously hurt someones campaign fleet. It's also a pretty safe way of earning the ship XP.
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Postby Romu » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:52 am

I've tried it a few times in casual games and it's not really rewarding, but it's a nice way to play the big ones a little more often so that's ok :)

Even more so if you agree with your opponent and he does the same.

Never played in a campaign so far but i'm sure bigger ships are a lot more usefull in the way inq101 describe.
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Postby Banichi » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:59 am

My friend tried it on with a bintak and two skirmish ships this weekend. I managed to drag it down, but had a lone centurion left at the end of the game. He nearly got me though, as he jumped the bintak in amongst my fleet in turn one, with all guns blazing. (one of the two skirmish ships was a scout) Most times I have tried a "might vs the multitude" I've lost.
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Postby Locutus9956 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:00 am

Ive done so frequently, and had some success with the Minbari mainly as I love the Sharlin and with its high stealth it can get away with it if its lucky and takes out initiative sinks quickly or gets a lucky crit on the enemy flagship etc. I often use either a Sharlin and 2 Torothas or a Sharlin and a Leshath (though now minbeams and beams dont benefit from scout I daresay I wont use that one again except against other Minbari)
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Postby Voronesh » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:54 am

Just a quick question, how does a big ship get less sustained effects from crits?

(as i dont have my book yet :cry: )


Otherwise big ships normally get ravaged by the crits... (had a biggie with a no weapons fire, no repair crit once)
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Postby Romu » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:05 am

The most damaging crits were removed, for exemple no more speed 0, no weapons may fire, ect

And the all hands to deck SA allows to attempt to repair every crit at +2 now if memory serves.
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Postby Burger » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:12 am

What Romu said, plus All Hands On Deck is now automatic instead of CQ 9.

Still, a No Special Actions crit bones your big ship back to where it was in Armageddon.
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Postby Voronesh » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:57 am

Ahh ok, thanks. Now that is cool. Automatic All hands to deck is nice, and with effective CQ6, one should be able to repair quite a few crits.

But yeah the NSA still makes your ship very very much worthless......
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Postby Spideredd » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:47 pm

I find that taking two drakh carriers in a raid 5 is good, back them up with a light cruiser or fast destroyer and fleet's almost a good 'un.
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Postby Johnny D » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:08 pm

I agree with the majority of these posts in that big ships just aren’t worth it compared to what you can get for the points.
It’s such an issue that we have a house rule that you have to have 1 Battle choice for every 5raid points (or 1 war out of 10 raid).
Otherwise swarm fleets are just too effective. This house rule also helps to ensure that you get more of a variety of ships. We've been doing this for the best part of a year now and it works really well (although we make an exception for the early years Earth player).
Not sure what war ship I’d want to use in a 5 pt game though. Criticals and lack of initiative sinks make it such a dicey proposition especially if you have bore sight rather than arc weapons.
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Postby Spideredd » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:13 pm

Johnny D wrote:I agree with the majority of these posts in that big ships just aren’t worth it compared to what you can get for the points.
It’s such an issue that we have a house rule that you have to have 1 Battle choice for every 5raid points (or 1 war out of 10 raid).
Otherwise swarm fleets are just too effective. This house rule also helps to ensure that you get more of a variety of ships. We've been doing this for the best part of a year now and it works really well (although we make an exception for the early years Earth player).
I must say that I am not over fond of resricting players in this way too often, nor of being so restricted.
Besides, in a ten raid, under these restrictions, I'd take a drakh mothership and a supporting squadren of raiders.
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Postby Locutus9956 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:14 pm

In all honesty though I would hardly say the Drakh Mothership cna carrier count for this question as they are basically a better way of buying multiple ships rather than just choosing a bit battleship instead of lots of smaller ones ;)
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Postby Spideredd » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:22 pm

Locutus9956 wrote:In all honesty though I would hardly say the Drakh Mothership cna carrier count for this question as they are basically a better way of buying multiple ships rather than just choosing a bit battleship instead of lots of smaller ones ;)
I quite agree.
:twisted: It is merely a way of getting around the restrictions Johnny D posted for his campaign. :twisted:

But serriously, I would be quite happy to use the Cruiser in a raid game, though I would need a couple of patrol cruiers to help back it up.
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Postby Bubba Ho-Tep » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:28 pm

I play a Sharlin and 2 Tinashi fleet. It's what I played at Gen Con, but like mentioned, only having 3 ships was a big disadvantage, stealth was my only saving grace.
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Postby Locutus9956 » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:32 pm

Well ok but I think were getting abit away from the 'war level ships in a 5 point raid' thing now, war level ships in a 10 point raid or 5 point battle isnt that big a deal (I still dont like that theyve made swarms even swarmier, I had missed that change to FAPs in the books but now I know of it its one of the few things I really dislike in 2nd ed.)
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Postby Spideredd » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:43 pm

Spideredd wrote: But serriously, I would be quite happy to use the Cruiser in a raid game, though I would need a couple of patrol cruiers to help back it up.
I do like the drakh cruiser
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