SST EVO

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
tneva82
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3133
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 5:08 pm

Postby tneva82 » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:59 am

Lieutenant Rasczak wrote:Ahem, its NOT my generalization - check out TMP and a LOT of other wargaming forums (I can't comment on all of the other Forums as I don't visit all of them).
Doesn't mean it's absolute truth though. Hobby is what every person defines it for himself...Just because person X defines it includes painting doesn't mean same holds for person Y.
皆と友達ができませんが皆に友好的ができます

You can't be friend with everybody but you can be friendly to everybody
human_target
Mongoose
Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Belgium - Brussels - Duisburg

Postby human_target » Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:15 pm

Bottom line?

Some people WILL buy into it.

I'm one of those.

everybody else should just go ahead and do whatever they like to do.

s
Oscar Wilde once wrote:" We all live in the gutter, but some of us look up to the stars"
Mage
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2400
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: Ireland.

Postby Mage » Sat Sep 29, 2007 5:46 pm

Well, i have yet to see a BFE mini up close and cannot judge, but lwets look at AT43.

You get six plastic figures in some caes for like 25 euros. That is pricey. Non gamers wont get into the hobby purely because of the ost. In general, without prepaints, our hobbies like cardsn rpgs, and\ wargames are exensive.

I myself would rather get metal and plastic and do it all myself.

Now, a lot of people are saying rackham are at deaths door. If someone can prove this, now I am curious and want to read it, I am not accusing anyone of being a liar, please post a link.

Now for people who do not want to paint and want prepaints, Ill tell you story.

ITs about a friend from my lgs. I wont post his real name, but lets call him Joe for not. Joe has a family, is busy with work, and has been gaming for years. Never liked painting, it would always be the subject of light hearted jokes in the club/shop.

A few years ago GW started creating regional tournaments in IReland, and one of the conditions to enter was to have your models paintded with at least three colours, and based. With the help of the LGS owner and another excellent painter, they helped Joe paint up his space wolves army in a month to a decent standard. Noe he can't put down paintbrushed, and it has been... heck four years at this stage. He now owns a masterpiece painted Skaven army.

Don't knock painting till you have tried it, or at least had a good painter show you how.

It just goes to show how much painting is part of the hobby by definition by the amount of members who stopped painting since the big announcement about starship troopers.

I was ecstatic to see the fleet landing party come out and rumuors of some skinnie stuff. I am all for painting, and will only get new sculpts or units that have not been released yet. Assuming a bunch of other war gamers do as I, and that mongoose are gonna use a fairly similar mould on some of their prepaint released to the grey and whites with their initial released, I doubt I will spend more than 100 euros on the game in a year, which equates to something in the region of ten or eleven euros, very roughly a month on new release for mongoose.

However, if there was metal minis for 30E a month released, and there were two or three released, or plastic, Odds are I would buy at least one. So already 'old school wargamers' (ones who paint, game model) will be spending a third of what they normally would on a game that costs about twice as much to produce as the older way of doing it.

My two cents.
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:15 pm

human_target wrote:Bottom line?

Some people WILL buy into it.

I'm one of those.

everybody else should just go ahead and do whatever they like to do.

s


BUT will the odd bloke buying it be enough to cover the cost of producing it . . . .
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image
MaxSteiner
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1594
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:41 pm
Location: Superman or Green Lantern ain't got a-nothin' on me
Contact:

Postby MaxSteiner » Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:16 pm

Lieutenant Rasczak wrote:TBH, after looking at AT-43 and BF Evo - I am NOT looking forward to SST Evo Miniatures.

My plan is now to pretty much only buy what I don't have, and most likely re-paint them (I am the sort of Guy who re-paints his Star Wars miniatures).

I you want to Wargame, in a serious manner. Assembling and painting is an IMPORTANT part of the experience. If you don't enjoy painting and modelling, then fair enough. If you don't have the time to paint and model, also fair enough.

But don't (and this is going to p**s a lot of people off, but its my thought on the matter so I am expressing it) kid yourself you are playing anything but a 'Toy' wargame, and thats all (not that there's anything wrong with that tbh, Toy Wargaming is very popular).

A lot of people are going to call me a snob, (rather a snob than not be 'ar**d') but I love the WHOLE hobby (BTW, quick question - can you call JUST playing a Wargame a hobby, or is it a passtime like playing Board Games). There have been lots of discussion about 'making SST more accessable' and such, and initially I was really behind that. But the more and more I think about it, the worse an Idea it seems.

SST Evo has had constant problems as far as its release goes, they have even started releasing metal models to 'fill the (increasing) gap'. All that projects to me is that its going horribly wrong.

The initial releases of AT-43 were 'ok', but the quality and style of the pre-paints changed with subsequent releases (much to the dismay and irritation of its fans) and production problems and poor sales in some parts of the world have left Rackham at deaths door, and that worries me for Mongoose.

YES pre-paints make things easier and faster, and yes it makes the whole thing more accessable (however, Wargaming of any sort is NEVER going to be HUGE - it generally appeals to a certain mindset) and as most consumers don't give a hoot - that presents the problem. A company spends A LOT of money on the release of a pre-painted game, and simply can't sell or produce them fast enough to warrent the expediture or risk and thats damaging no matter WHO runs the company.

Is pre-painted the future, I don't think so. Battlefront games are doing great with Flames of War - and not a pre-painted Tank in sight . . . . . .
How come when I said this a year and a half ago I got jumped on by half a dozen people (including you Lt lol) telling me I was talking out of my arse?
:D
I don't mind the prepaint phenomina to much. But I'll be damned if Im going to pay premium prices for subpar models just because they already have a paintjob that Im gonna have to paint over anyway.

End of the day, until they come up with a process that DOESNT involve a disinterested wage slave slapping the paint on, prepaints are going to look like a completly disinterested wage slave slapped some paint on.
Last edited by MaxSteiner on Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quark wrote:EGADS! When did MAX BECOME THE VOICE OF REASON AROUND HERE?! :shock: :lol:
lastbesthope
Executive Mongoose
Posts: 19697
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:27 pm
Location: Bristol, UK
Contact:

Postby lastbesthope » Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:21 pm

Lieutenant Rasczak wrote:
lastbesthope wrote:No I think that the point is that YOU think that wargaming should include painting and modelling/assembly. I mean it's not called warpaintingmodellingassemblinggaming is it?

If it's an important part of your 'wargaming' experience to assemble and paint your models fine, but there is no need to denegrate those that choose (either on their own or indirectly through the circumstances they find themselves in) to play with prepaints.

Me, I focus more on the gaming part of 'wargaming' I mean it does constitute 2/3 of the descriptor, and more than 2/3 of the reason I play.

LBH

Ahem, its NOT my generalization - check out TMP and a LOT of other wargaming forums (I can't comment on all of the other Forums as I don't visit all of them).
I never said it was just your generalisation, and nothing you have written invalidates my point.

LBH
I'll live forever, heaven won't let me in and hell's afraid I'll take over!!!

Mongoose Accolades
human_target
Mongoose
Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Belgium - Brussels - Duisburg

Postby human_target » Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:25 pm

Lieutenant Rasczak wrote:
human_target wrote:Bottom line?

Some people WILL buy into it.

I'm one of those.

everybody else should just go ahead and do whatever they like to do.

s


BUT will the odd bloke buying it be enough to cover the cost of producing it . . . .
I wouldn't add the "odd" in the sentence.
Before you know it we could be the odd person to support something.

First to answer your question: yes, I think so

Now maybe not for Mongoose mind you (but I do hope so), but somewhere down the line somebody will come up with the way to do it right (it's kind of a messiah-complex methinks - you start to believe in it and you will start seeing it ; )
Oscar Wilde once wrote:" We all live in the gutter, but some of us look up to the stars"
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:39 pm

lastbesthope wrote:I never said it was just your generalisation, and nothing you have written invalidates my point.

LBH

Its very hard to invalidate or disprove anything with words, especially when they go missing.

But, by the same token. Nothing you have written invalidates anything either.
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:44 pm

human_target wrote: I wouldn't add the "odd" in the sentence.
Before you know it we could be the odd person to support something.

First to answer your question: yes, I think so

Now maybe not for Mongoose mind you (but I do hope so), but somewhere down the line somebody will come up with the way to do it right (it's kind of a messiah-complex methinks - you start to believe in it and you will start seeing it ; )


I don't think use of the word 'Odd' was too out of place, think of how few people (compared to say the Computer Gaming community) there are actually Wargame.

Then, consider how few (as a percentage of Wargamers) there are 'into' each specific game.

THEN, further consider how few there are who want a pre-painted game. Its not that many at all.

Rackham felt that making AT-43 pre-painted would 'temp' non gamers into the fold. But after release, market research showed that many were put off by the price compared to the quality; and many more simply didn't 'get' the attraction or weren't interested.

Its a dangerous line.

I would LOVE SST Evo to be a success, but SST was on such shakey ground anyway (poor and sporadic releases) I think you are spot on the money for its success.

Someone someday might get pre-painteds right. But I don't think its in the immediate future.
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image
human_target
Mongoose
Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Belgium - Brussels - Duisburg

Postby human_target » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:06 pm

Lieutenant Rasczak wrote:
human_target wrote: I wouldn't add the "odd" in the sentence.
Before you know it we could be the odd person to support something.

First to answer your question: yes, I think so

Now maybe not for Mongoose mind you (but I do hope so), but somewhere down the line somebody will come up with the way to do it right (it's kind of a messiah-complex methinks - you start to believe in it and you will start seeing it ; )


I don't think use of the word 'Odd' was too out of place, think of how few people (compared to say the Computer Gaming community) there are actually Wargame.

Then, consider how few (as a percentage of Wargamers) there are 'into' each specific game.

THEN, further consider how few there are who want a pre-painted game. Its not that many at all.

Rackham felt that making AT-43 pre-painted would 'temp' non gamers into the fold. But after release, market research showed that many were put off by the price compared to the quality; and many more simply didn't 'get' the attraction or weren't interested.

Its a dangerous line.

I would LOVE SST Evo to be a success, but SST was on such shakey ground anyway (poor and sporadic releases) I think you are spot on the money for its success.

Someone someday might get pre-painteds right. But I don't think its in the immediate future.
Maybe I'm somewhere close to Soulmage.
If I like something I buy it (while I'm not a millionaire, I do get around : )

the 'gaming scene' is too dilluted (if I understand correctly what you're talking about) and you are correct that almost always (better scratch that almost) some people but not all adhere to a new game.

What I do find strange is the fact that we all here really like the background of SST and we would very much like it to be a succes.
But somehow we all would like a different take on it (wheter it's rules or paints or sculpts) and that's just why somewhere, somewhen it could not work out.

I don't think that some hicks in a release date will kill a product though there is some kind of period (don't ask me how long, I wdon't know) people have to try not to cross.

I experienced this when buying 'the Ultimates' from Marvel Comics
For a medium where most of the comics come out at an interval of once a month, I was pretty anxious to get my hands on the next installment.
Some times I had to wait 6 months (or even longer, I don't remember) for the next issue.
It was definitely worth the wait.

s
Oscar Wilde once wrote:" We all live in the gutter, but some of us look up to the stars"
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:19 pm

I am a HUGE Hellboy Fan, so I really do understand the pain of waiting Lol!

Delays in a release shouldn't hurt a product, but it will put people off (look how many are jumping ship) I just hope the final product is worth it.
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image
human_target
Mongoose
Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Belgium - Brussels - Duisburg

Postby human_target » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:32 pm

I hope it too

And I do have a few Hellboy comics also (notably the cross-over with Starman - got the whole run of it, and a tattoo of the starman symbol also)

s
Oscar Wilde once wrote:" We all live in the gutter, but some of us look up to the stars"
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Sat Sep 29, 2007 8:50 pm

human_target wrote:I hope it too

And I do have a few Hellboy comics also (notably the cross-over with Starman - got the whole run of it, and a tattoo of the starman symbol also)

s
The Starman/Hellboy cross was class!
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image
human_target
Mongoose
Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Belgium - Brussels - Duisburg

Postby human_target » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:44 pm

a connoiseur ; )
Oscar Wilde once wrote:" We all live in the gutter, but some of us look up to the stars"
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:53 pm

human_target wrote:a connoiseur ; )
Hell Yea!

I spent two hours on the phone to my friend Gordon at Battlefront Games UK Office, an hour of that was just talking about Comics!
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image
Maelmordha
Stoat
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:29 am
Location: Dunfermline
Contact:

Postby Maelmordha » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:09 am

Just read this thread and what a furore over nuthin'

I actually LIKE painting (and I'm pretty good even though I say so myself :wink: ). I also see the modelling part of the hobby as an important part for me.

That said - I have prepaints (and armies painted by professional artists) I have acquired over the years. I always feel the ones I painted myself are special because I know the amount of work I've put into them to make them look the way I want them to. I also have an attic full of lead......

I also have noooooo time since I am married with 2 young kids, a house that needs work and a job that runs on deadlines.

So what I'm trying to say is I'll probably paint a special unit or two and flesh out the rest of the army with prepaints. The prepaints eventually going to some of my club colleagues as I manage to replace them with 'my' stuff. Prepaints would NOT be getting used in any of my displays though.....

M
Sanity is just another form of madness.........


http://www.dunfermlinewargamesclub.org.uk
human_target
Mongoose
Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Belgium - Brussels - Duisburg

Postby human_target » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:30 pm

same here, same here

but I got 3 kids :D

I don't like painting, but I like to play with painted figs.

So, until the prepaints are out I'll keep painting, but afterwards it's prepaints with maybe a little tweak for me.

s
Oscar Wilde once wrote:" We all live in the gutter, but some of us look up to the stars"
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:44 pm

human_target wrote:same here, same here

but I got 3 kids :D

I don't like painting, but I like to play with painted figs.

So, until the prepaints are out I'll keep painting, but afterwards it's prepaints with maybe a little tweak for me.

s

2 Kids, 14 Cats, a Dog, Infirm Relatives, Self Employed . . . . . .

I know what you mean!
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image
Galatea
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1074
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:40 pm
Location: Esslingen am Neckar (near Stuttgart, Germany)
Contact:

Postby Galatea » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:04 pm

Well, let's just say, Rackham tried it - and failed.
I don't think Mongoose can do significantly better than Rackham, so in USA, yes maybe they will suceed. But not in Europe.
==> Good decision to keep the old modells.
Take my love, take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care, I'm still free
You can't take the sky from me.

Image
Lieutenant Rasczak
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3404
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 12:07 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, West Midlands, UK

Postby Lieutenant Rasczak » Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:16 pm

Galatea wrote:Well, let's just say, Rackham tried it - and failed.
I don't think Mongoose can do significantly better than Rackham, so in USA, yes maybe they will suceed. But not in Europe.
==> Good decision to keep the old modells.
Old Models Rule!

:D
S.I.C.O.N Command THE Place for SST Fans!
http://www.phpbbplanet.com/sicon/index.php?mforum=sicon
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests