Questions re Grenades

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
Bede
Mongoose
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2005 3:03 am

Questions re Grenades

Postby Bede » Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:31 am

The rules say you can use grenades with a ready action. Does this mean you must spend one action to ready and then another action to throw the grenades? Or does the ready action throw them?
The Old Soldier
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 3:02 am
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio. Where pigs fly but turkeys don't

Postby The Old Soldier » Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:04 am

First action ready, second action use.
"On the Bounce"
User avatar
lastbesthope
Executive Mongoose
Posts: 19697
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:27 pm
Location: Bristol, UK
Contact:

Postby lastbesthope » Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:09 pm

You sure TOS? makes no mention of a second action requiremnt, unlike Covered Advance which clearly states you need to Ready before Move

LBH
I'll live forever, heaven won't let me in and hell's afraid I'll take over!!!

Mongoose Accolades
User avatar
BuShips
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3858
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:51 am
Location: Near Mt. St. Helens (that volcano)

Postby BuShips » Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:56 pm

Yes LBH, but then why use the word "Ready" when if they meant to mean no extra delay they could just use the term "Fire"? 'Ready' means prepare and 'Fire' means to make a combat action I'd think.
©2002 Thomas Schmid, with permission. Visit http://www.3dhistory.de/.
Image
User avatar
cordas
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1769
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:54 am
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Postby cordas » Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:35 pm

I dunno, to me the use of one action to ready (provoking a reaction) then the action of using grenades sounds like suicide that means grenades will never be used.

I think when it says any unit may elect to use grenades with a ready action, means that they use them in the same action as the ready. It means they throw grenades rather than shoot, move or any perform any other action. I would then further suggest that the unit is not readied for the next action as they have already used the action by chucking said grenades.
We play CTA/SFoS (using counters and FA models), Starship Troopers (evo), 40k, Flames of War, BF EVO

RP, B5, Star Wars, and others. If you are local to Newcastle upon Tyne and fancy joining in drop me a message.
The Old Soldier
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 3:02 am
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio. Where pigs fly but turkeys don't

Postby The Old Soldier » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:07 pm

The whole section on grenades in a structure might as well be just black marked and removed from the Rule Book. It is very vague and makes little sense. ALL rules reqarding ready means to use a ready action. Why would this one be any different? The only thing grenades have going for them is the fact they negate cover saves for the targets in the building.

I would have rather had it written as a special Action. Any unit with a model within the building or within 6" of the building may place a 3" FZ anywhere within the building up to 6" from one of the models of the firing unit. This FZ acts as per normal FZ rules except all models within the FZ will have Damage Dice of a D6 rolled against it bla, bla, bla,.......

I see no reason why the unit using the grenades couldn't make another action during thier turn. I have used grenades, you toss em in, then while the enemy is hopefully stunned, wounded or dieing finish them off with close quarter fire after going in to get them.
"On the Bounce"
User avatar
cordas
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1769
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:54 am
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Postby cordas » Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:20 pm

The Old Soldier wrote:The whole section on grenades in a structure might as well be just black marked and removed from the Rule Book. It is very vague and makes little sense. ALL rules reqarding ready means to use a ready action. Why would this one be any different? The only thing grenades have going for them is the fact they negate cover saves for the targets in the building.

I would have rather had it written as a special Action. Any unit with a model within the building or within 6" of the building may place a 3" FZ anywhere within the building up to 6" from one of the models of the firing unit. This FZ acts as per normal FZ rules except all models within the FZ will have Damage Dice of a D6 rolled against it bla, bla, bla,.......

I see no reason why the unit using the grenades couldn't make another action during thier turn. I have used grenades, you toss em in, then while the enemy is hopefully stunned, wounded or dieing finish them off with close quarter fire after going in to get them.
Thats my feeling, and if they are used in the action you ready then they would work that way and make sense. However its not well written to make it clear, in most other instances of using ready actions to do things, it says specificaly that you can take this advantage in your next action. For example with Extreme Range on page 32 itr says "the unit must first take a ready action".
We play CTA/SFoS (using counters and FA models), Starship Troopers (evo), 40k, Flames of War, BF EVO

RP, B5, Star Wars, and others. If you are local to Newcastle upon Tyne and fancy joining in drop me a message.
User avatar
lastbesthope
Executive Mongoose
Posts: 19697
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 4:27 pm
Location: Bristol, UK
Contact:

Postby lastbesthope » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:13 pm

BuShips wrote:Yes LBH, but then why use the word "Ready" when if they meant to mean no extra delay they could just use the term "Fire"? 'Ready' means prepare and 'Fire' means to make a combat action I'd think.
Because requiring a Ready Action to do it stops it being done as a reaction. Maybe???

LBH
I'll live forever, heaven won't let me in and hell's afraid I'll take over!!!

Mongoose Accolades
User avatar
BuShips
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3858
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:51 am
Location: Near Mt. St. Helens (that volcano)

Postby BuShips » Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:46 pm

lastbesthope wrote:
BuShips wrote:Yes LBH, but then why use the word "Ready" when if they meant to mean no extra delay they could just use the term "Fire"? 'Ready' means prepare and 'Fire' means to make a combat action I'd think.
Because requiring a Ready Action to do it stops it being done as a reaction. Maybe???

LBH
Yes, that could be an answer. I'm not saying that it should take two Actions to use a grenade mind you, as I'd have just called it a Shoot action and be done with it. It would be simple that way, and I like simple. :)
©2002 Thomas Schmid, with permission. Visit http://www.3dhistory.de/.
Image
User avatar
cordas
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1769
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:54 am
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Postby cordas » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:23 am

BuShips wrote:
lastbesthope wrote:
BuShips wrote:Yes LBH, but then why use the word "Ready" when if they meant to mean no extra delay they could just use the term "Fire"? 'Ready' means prepare and 'Fire' means to make a combat action I'd think.
Because requiring a Ready Action to do it stops it being done as a reaction. Maybe???

LBH
Yes, that could be an answer. I'm not saying that it should take two Actions to use a grenade mind you, as I'd have just called it a Shoot action and be done with it. It would be simple that way, and I like simple. :)
Naa I think it shouldn't be a shoot action, as its a special action. However I do think the instructions could have been better worded.
We play CTA/SFoS (using counters and FA models), Starship Troopers (evo), 40k, Flames of War, BF EVO

RP, B5, Star Wars, and others. If you are local to Newcastle upon Tyne and fancy joining in drop me a message.
The Old Soldier
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 3:02 am
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio. Where pigs fly but turkeys don't

Postby The Old Soldier » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:34 am

If it is suppose to be used in the same action, then call it what it is. A special shoot action (THROW). Just like you have in the Air phase a special move action (LAND), or a special shoot action (BOMB).

Either that or if it is intended to be readied before throwing, then make the ready action SPECIAL in that it does not provoke a reaction.

The word ready should only be used as a action to prepare something. That way there is no confusion.
"On the Bounce"
User avatar
cordas
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1769
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:54 am
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Postby cordas » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:46 am

The Old Soldier wrote:If it is suppose to be used in the same action, then call it what it is. A special shoot action (THROW). Just like you have in the Air phase a special move action (LAND), or a special shoot action (BOMB).

Either that or if it is intended to be readied before throwing, then make the ready action SPECIAL in that it does not provoke a reaction.

The word ready should only be used as a action to prepare something. That way there is no confusion.
Quite agree about the unclear wording :evil:. It really doesn't help, but I still think if it took 2 actions to throw grenades (even if it didn't provoke a reaction) would spoil the idea, I am sure the idea should be trow in grenades then charge to try and take the enemy out hand to hand.
We play CTA/SFoS (using counters and FA models), Starship Troopers (evo), 40k, Flames of War, BF EVO

RP, B5, Star Wars, and others. If you are local to Newcastle upon Tyne and fancy joining in drop me a message.
User avatar
cordas
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1769
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:54 am
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Postby cordas » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:48 am

Argh have just noticed something else potentaily missing from the grenades rule....

What happens to friendly models from the same unit caught in the fire zone, reading it as it stands now they should be fine, as models in the unit that create the FZ can't be hit by it.... Surely grenades are different.
We play CTA/SFoS (using counters and FA models), Starship Troopers (evo), 40k, Flames of War, BF EVO

RP, B5, Star Wars, and others. If you are local to Newcastle upon Tyne and fancy joining in drop me a message.
The Old Soldier
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 3:02 am
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio. Where pigs fly but turkeys don't

Postby The Old Soldier » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:52 am

Works in the same way as a normal FZ. The unit creating it can not be harmed by thier own FZ, but can harm other friendly or enemy units.

Nothing missing.
"On the Bounce"
User avatar
cordas
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1769
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:54 am
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Postby cordas » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:54 am

The Old Soldier wrote:Works in the same way as a normal FZ. The unit creating it can not be harmed by thier own FZ, but can harm other friendly or enemy units.

Nothing missing.
Apart from the fact that every model in the FZ gets hit with a D6, and the building itself with 4xD6, so how does the shrapnel manage to avoid the friendly troops in the firing unit?
We play CTA/SFoS (using counters and FA models), Starship Troopers (evo), 40k, Flames of War, BF EVO

RP, B5, Star Wars, and others. If you are local to Newcastle upon Tyne and fancy joining in drop me a message.
The Old Soldier
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 3:02 am
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio. Where pigs fly but turkeys don't

Postby The Old Soldier » Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:59 am

The same way it did when I threw them. Building consist of rooms and hallways. You just make sure you get them in where they can work thier wonders without killing yourself. Remember this is a abstract game.
"On the Bounce"
User avatar
BuShips
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3858
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:51 am
Location: Near Mt. St. Helens (that volcano)

Postby BuShips » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:10 pm

Why, "Smart" grenades of course, cordas. :wink:
©2002 Thomas Schmid, with permission. Visit http://www.3dhistory.de/.
Image
User avatar
cordas
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 1769
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:54 am
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne UK

Postby cordas » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:31 pm

Fire zones do differentiate grenades don't. When you are using them in a different room you can say you are placing the FZ so that it doesn't catch your own guys. Using the rules as you stand I could jump my SAS out of ambush right into the middle of your squad and then grenade your huys but not my own...... Thats not abstract its bollocks.
Last edited by cordas on Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We play CTA/SFoS (using counters and FA models), Starship Troopers (evo), 40k, Flames of War, BF EVO

RP, B5, Star Wars, and others. If you are local to Newcastle upon Tyne and fancy joining in drop me a message.
User avatar
BuShips
Cosmic Mongoose
Posts: 3858
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:51 am
Location: Near Mt. St. Helens (that volcano)

Postby BuShips » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:43 pm

cordas wrote:Fire zones do differentiate grenades do. When you are using them in a different room you can say you are placing the FZ so that it doesn't catch your own guys. Using the rules as you stand I could jump my SAS out of ambush right into the middle of your squad and then grenade your huys but not my own...... Thats not abstract its bollocks.
My comment was a wry answer, but you do have a point that could be posed in a rulesmasters question. I see the same issue as you, since there are no IFF smart grenades quite yet.
©2002 Thomas Schmid, with permission. Visit http://www.3dhistory.de/.
Image
The Old Soldier
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 3:02 am
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio. Where pigs fly but turkeys don't

Postby The Old Soldier » Sat Jun 23, 2007 10:46 pm

There may not be smart grenades, but there are smart soldiers. All this has become redundant.

The only problem with the rules is the vagueness about who the grenades are used, not the way the FZ works. I got nothing more to add.
"On the Bounce"

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 71 guests