T-95, Black Eagle, FMBT M1

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Postby Mr Evil » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:07 pm

the ameican job looks like something from ground zero games !!!!
nice to see they have copied a few of the russian new tank design concepts though.
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Postby Mr Evil » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:13 pm

looked at link you posted hiro, not sure how old that is, my report is from a chat i had 2 months ago and hes been back in uk 3 months so far, that said i got no idea when he saw the demonstration.

this bit was interesting though
The Chiorny Oriol has the same overall dimensions as the T-80U does, nevertheless it has a lower silhouette which makes it less distinctive on the terrain. The experts believe that in terms of combination of the basic charac-teristics such as maneuverability, fire power, armour piercing capability and protection this MBT will surpass the Western MBTs such as M1A2 Abrams, Leclerk and Leopard-2 by a factor of 1.5-1.7.
i can see russia being very exspensive armour and very cheap troops. would be such an interesting force.

due to russian set up maybe not allow them to have a command tank for one reason or another for ballance, if it is truley going to out perform a M1A2 by say 1.5 thats gonna be a 630 tanke their abouts !!! would be awsome though wouldnt it.
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Postby Hiromoon » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:24 pm

bigtmac68 wrote:Obviously Im no industry insider and my friends in the service are all infantry so no help there, so if you have better info than I do, and we are actually that close to fielding rail gun tech then ,, well,,, cool! 8)
I'll try to not put you to shame then, Bigtmac... buuut, the program I'm with is one of those compenent pieces for FCS. The initial spin out for FCS equipment is 2008, followed by additional systems.

And yes, we're pretty darn close to railguns. They've been testing one at Aberdeen for a few years yet.

Mr. Evil, my comment on the drinking part was due in part to the fact that I'm having an increasingly hard time making heads nor tails of your writing. And the page I linked to put out a 2007 book on the Russian Military, so I'd have to say it's as up to date as it can get without me forking over money.

And you're going to have to forgive me when I say I'm a bit skeptical of some of your friend's claims.
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Postby bigtmac68 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:54 pm

Then I bow to your sources, and forgive me if I try to pick your brian for as much non classified data as possible :lol:


When you say 2008 are you talking about demonstration model of a new vehicle or integration of of FCS systems into current platform ( i.e M1 chassy)

Are we talking the high pressure 120 with an unmaned turret with an eventual transition to the railgun?

Every source I can find indicates the raytheon "hard-kill" system is 2011 demonstration at the earliest, is this incorrect ?

All in this would make me feel less concerned about the T-95 program

As for the Black Eagle, again im just an ex infantry jr officer who sells insurance for a living but I try to cure my boredom by reading defense industry forums all day and try to keep up as best I can and Black Eagle still mounts the standard 125mm rifled soviet gun. It may be able to retrofit the 152mm at a future date, but there is no indication that the vehicle has ever gone into production from any source I can find.

And if it still has the 125mm, then it is still going to have the same 1600meter to 2500meter engagement issue as any other soviet tank ( cant penetrate western armor until it closes within 1600meters while wester 120 du, or 120 55l tungsten can penetrate out to 2500 and beyond.)
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Postby Hiromoon » Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:13 pm

Soldier equipement. This isn't classified data at all, and was seen in an article published in an article back in Feb '07. This was all ramped forward by Rumsfeld, and still depends on how well the Land Warrior system performs in OIF right now (so far so good).

http://www.army.mil/-news/2007/02/13/18 ... turn-them/
The initial version of the network operating system, the joint tactical radio system, the tactical and urban unattended ground sensors and the non-line-of-sight launch system are funded for the first spin-out of FCS systems starting in fiscal 2008.
Beats me about what kind of rail gun, all I know is that it fires a tungstun spike with enough force to puncture one side of a tank and not the other. It then rattles around inside untill it looses force... course, by then you've either cooked off ammo or reduced the enemy crew into something similar to the consistance of salsa. Chunky Salsa.

As for Raython's "Hard Kill" APS, I'll look into it.

Edit: Let's see... it's not expected to be fielded before 2010. This is what happens when you let Industry run this instead of letting the Department of Defense do the work...
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/200 ... /index.php
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Postby bigtmac68 » Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:51 pm

So the idea will be to have a little mini flying Robot with each squad, tactically linked into thier battlefield managment gear?

you know they will start naming them, and painting them up, giving them logos and stuff. It will be like having a pet dog that can fly and doesnt crap in your track.

I WANT ONE!!!!

almost enough to make me want to re-up!

Nothing in there about roll out time for the FCS AFV, im still betting thats going to be along the lines of the armor article, of course that article is pre bush and pre 9-11 so im sure the timeline may have been accelerated dramatically.

still dont see us fielding a vehicle mounted railgun before 2020, but if the XM291 120 can generate the advertised 100% increase in effectivness of a du penetrator that should keep us at least on par with t-95's 152mm.


one last question though hiro, anything you can disclose about EM armor? seems like the only thing out there with any chance of providing protection once railguns start rolling out.
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Postby Hiromoon » Fri Jun 08, 2007 4:59 pm

Actually, the fact that they're doing a 2008-2012 time scale for FCS is absolutely amazing, though that's the Military's time scale. I have no idea what the Industrials are doing (I mean, look at the Deepwater program).

And I can't tell you anything about that because I don't know anything about it at the moment.

Check this out:
http://www.army.mil/fcs/
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Postby Pietia » Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:53 pm

Mr Evil wrote: i can see russia being very exspensive armour and very cheap troops. would be such an interesting force.
Cheap troops? Not necessarily... Russian troops (those actually fighting) use quite good body armor, very good small arms and infantry support weapons (e.g. the AGS-30 automatic grenade launcher, quarter of the weight of Mk19 with similar performance), , used LAW-like anti-personnell thermobaric weapons since late seventies (US is introducing them now) and have lots of experience in "low intensity" conflicts.
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Postby Mr Evil » Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:19 pm

true russain troops are battle hardened, as skilfully trained ? not so sure their training seems to be more brutal than specialist.

be interesting though wouldnt it the way it looks all the best gear and troops in some respects.

more you look at it we techno forces do look alittie shabby compared to what russia has in the wings.
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Postby Pietia » Fri Jun 08, 2007 7:29 pm

It does not matter if your training was brutal or specialist, but whether you're prepared for your job or not. They are...

As for the Russian tanks - don't worry, their top-of-the-line tank is T-90 at this moment...
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Postby Mr Evil » Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:31 pm

im sure vladameer is on that case, military spending is going up at such a hight rate by some accounts youd think another cold war was comming, mean while we are in the gulf loosing equipment and good men.
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Postby Pietia » Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:33 pm

Mr Evil wrote:military spending is going up at such a hight rate by some accounts youd think another cold war was comming
It is coming (or rather it is already here, only nobody has noticed...)
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Postby Hiromoon » Fri Jun 08, 2007 8:46 pm

Mm....Cold War...

It was always such a wonderful thing for both the US and Russia... Large military budgets, proxie wars, Mr Evil's access to Soviet Surplus at an all time low... ;)
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Postby Meliadus » Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:42 am

Looks like we're at the new cold war now with Russia turning her nukes on euro cities now
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Postby Mr Evil » Sun Jun 10, 2007 3:44 pm

Hiromoon wrote:Mr Evil's access to Soviet Surplus at an all time low... ;)
i must say russian surplus is at a lltime low at the moment, prices are rocketing, but that could be due to demand from the airsoft market growing so fast.

thing is what we whant is a russian force, probbaly sell realy well, investment wise i think its a path mongoose should go down serously.
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Postby Meliadus » Sun Jun 10, 2007 5:26 pm

Yeah I'd think they would be one of the best sellers I really do not understand why MG brought out the PLA First instead of Russian army.
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Postby Hiromoon » Sun Jun 10, 2007 6:43 pm

Because they're sexier than the Russians. Most Western Defense Departments/Ministries are trying to find the next big threat, so China keeps coming up. The Russians are making a big come back, but they're not at the threat quality like they used to be at just yet.
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Postby Meliadus » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:34 pm

And the PLA are??
China are goin to do most of their conquests economicly their military while improving is still no match for any of the European or American forces, sure they have numbers of troops but nothing I would call sexy.
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Postby Hiromoon » Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:45 pm

Yep.
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Postby emperorpenguin » Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:16 pm

Meliadus wrote:And the PLA are??
China are goin to do most of their conquests economicly their military while improving is still no match for any of the European or American forces, sure they have numbers of troops but nothing I would call sexy.
yet

nobody considered Japan much before 1905, nor the USA before 1918

the US is getting worried by China's defence expenditure, if anyone were capable of overtaking the US as a superpower it'd be China. Europe is too divided at present and India is a few decades behind China in that regard
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