Eight of these Arab Gents into THAT small a car?????

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
Xorrandor
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Postby Xorrandor » Mon May 14, 2007 8:25 pm

Benwick wrote:
The Old Soldier wrote:I thought we just made it clear the vehicles are the right size, the troops are too large. :roll:
Oh really? Then it is quite strange why MGP called it a 28mm game shortly before it was released!? :?:

I just hoped to play some weird crossover battles (SST vs BF:Evo). But it just doesn't fit in case of the MI. Very sad.*sigh*
I'm giving up and calling it a 1:65 game, so we don't get into annoying scale-creep and eyes-vs-top-of-head arguments. Yes, that makes the average soldier 6' tall. No, the average soldier is not 6' tall in real life. Yes, some soldiers are 6' tall in real life; I guess they were the lucky ones sent to Hirplakistan.

Nonetheless, I'm still looking at cross-over battles. My BF:Evo guys become LAMI, and Exosuits now look appropriately massive! :) (Actually, I'll probably end up playing Forth, but this way I can have a nice MI backup army for just the price of a few Exosuits...)
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Postby Tredrick » Tue May 15, 2007 3:20 am

I believe Mongoose admitted the people were scaled to the wrong height and the vehicles are spot on.
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Postby human_target » Tue May 15, 2007 10:49 am

Just walked past a Toyota yesterday and I wouldn't put that amount of guys in one technical either :D

It's gottaz be very crappy in the back.

But to me, they look fine model-wise.

S
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Postby cordas » Tue May 15, 2007 11:12 am

We used to get 8 adults in the back of an old old mazda pickup and that was smaller than most of the new ones. It wasn't comfortable and I very much doubt they would have been able to shoot from the back of it, without the vehicle being stationary certainly not with any accuracy.
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Postby emperorpenguin » Tue May 15, 2007 11:15 am

Xorrandor wrote:I'm giving up and calling it a 1:65 game, so we don't get into annoying scale-creep and eyes-vs-top-of-head arguments. Yes, that makes the average soldier 6' tall. No, the average soldier is not 6' tall in real life. )
nope that makes 'em 7' tall :wink:
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Xorrandor
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Postby Xorrandor » Tue May 15, 2007 2:42 pm

emperorpenguin wrote:
Xorrandor wrote:I'm giving up and calling it a 1:65 game, so we don't get into annoying scale-creep and eyes-vs-top-of-head arguments. Yes, that makes the average soldier 6' tall. No, the average soldier is not 6' tall in real life. )
nope that makes 'em 7' tall :wink:
31 mm * 65 = 6.6 feet. Two inches in boots, two inches in helmet. Fine, 6'3". My mistake... :roll:
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Postby Templar » Tue May 15, 2007 3:19 pm

*looks one direction*

...

*looks another direction*

...

"Why are Mommy and Daddy fighting?!?!?!"

Seriously, I think people arguing over the scale are crazy. Why? Do you all even like this game? Sure, the infantry seem large - they are on bases and the vehicles aren't. Yet, comparing a Toyota helix in size to a regular sized man, the scale is relatively close, particularly if you cut off the bases. Now, thus far, most are arguing the size of the brits, but really, the MEA are pretty similar in size. They way I figure it, I have seen this argument over scale continue since the first release. I expect it to continue until the last releases. Ultimately, you are playing on a tabletop.

Let's argue for a second here. If we want to speak of scale, lets talk about ranges of weapons. For all intensive purposes, there are 25.4 mm in an inch. we have already stated that 30mm = 6 feet. (thus 30/6 = 5 mm a foot)

What about the Main gun on an abrams tank? it has a max range of 72 inches, which equates to a whooping 1828.8 mm, or 365.76 feet)

How about the Barret? (effectively, 304.8 feet, the length of a football field?) From a freaking sniper rifle that for all intensive purposes has an EFFECTIVE RANGE of what 800 meters (roughly 2400 feet).

Now, we can hem and haw all day about how they aren't accurate, or we can realize that they are set that way for the game. Perhaps the infantry are too large - yet, if they were smaller, it would be a pain in the backside to move them individually without racking them as in other games or setting multiple figures per base.

Besides, is this really worth the time to get all worked up over? so what if they are 1:64, 1:65, or 1:72. Is that relavent to the actual game play in any way? If so, make a stink. But if we were actually mounting tabletop combat, a lot of stuff would be different than it is - but it is a freaking game!

It all started with a simple pile of MEA in a truck, that made me chuckle and degraded to some crazy "my measurements are closer than yours" arguement. Can't we all just have fun shooting at one another?
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Postby The Old Soldier » Tue May 15, 2007 3:22 pm

No Way :shock: , we are gamers, it is what we do! :wink:
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Templar
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Postby Templar » Tue May 15, 2007 3:25 pm

:D

I know... but I would rather see more gravity defying stunts with a million MEA piled on trucks! lol
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Postby Xorrandor » Tue May 15, 2007 3:34 pm

Templar wrote:Seriously, I think people arguing over the scale are crazy. Why? Do you all even like this game?
Sure I like this game. And what is the #1 reason given to me for not trying it out? "They used a different scale for the tanks!" So, if I want to persuade people to even try the game, I need to have an answer for that argument. If the "drastically different scale" boils down to making soldiers average 6'3" instead of 5'10", that's a good enough answer for me. And at least some other people; not everyone, though :).
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Postby emperorpenguin » Tue May 15, 2007 4:01 pm

Xorrandor wrote:31 mm * 65 = 6.6 feet. Two inches in boots, two inches in helmet. Fine, 6'3". My mistake... :roll:
I'm not having a go at you but there have been too many fanboys/Officer Barbradys saying "the scale is fine, nothing to see here" :roll:

I'd rather people be honest about the failings than constantly attempt to cover them up with false information. Quite a few people disputed the size of the figures.
They are just shy of 7 feet if you look at them next to a Challenger 2 and go with 32mm :)
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Templar
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Postby Templar » Tue May 15, 2007 4:18 pm

Xorrandor wrote:
Templar wrote:Seriously, I think people arguing over the scale are crazy. Why? Do you all even like this game?
Sure I like this game. And what is the #1 reason given to me for not trying it out? "They used a different scale for the tanks!" So, if I want to persuade people to even try the game, I need to have an answer for that argument. If the "drastically different scale" boils down to making soldiers average 6'3" instead of 5'10", that's a good enough answer for me. And at least some other people; not everyone, though :).
Yes, well if scale is their biggest concern, perhaps they shouldn't be gaming in the first place. I swear, as soon as it becomes anything having to do with RL militaries, people go all schitzo and want everything to be exact to a "T" and the issue is, the table top isn't the real world. I swear, the biggest thing that always strikes a nerve with me is the seriousness in which some gamers take their "games". I care about the rules (because they are what essentially makes a game playable or broken), The models being well made (because I am lazy and hate to paint and reglue broken crap), and accessibility to models (which is why pushed back release dates drive me up the wall).

Regardless, I revert back to my original statement - if the individual models were smaller and/or unbased, they would be a pain to move around individually, easy to lose, and detract from the game.

Ultimately, lets get down to the nitty gritty - I don't suspect that mongoose is going to change their scale of infantry any time soon, so beyond just wasting our time setting up dummies in full gear and going out to measure chally IIs, let's look for a good solution and put it to rest. So, with that being stated, we can expect the world's militaries to give their troops growth hormones in the year 2015, which will account for their greater than average size. (Now we can all be happy and try to convince Mongoose to send me a wave of models early!)
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Postby emperorpenguin » Tue May 15, 2007 4:31 pm

Templar wrote:, so beyond just wasting our time setting up dummies in full gear and going out to measure chally IIs, let's look for a good solution and put it to rest. !)
I'm not expecting or looking for a "solution", I just found it silly that people were saying the size was correct!
And you don't need to measure a Chally, the army do it for you on their website! :wink:

I disagree though with not getting RL militaries accurate, in that case they are not RL military depictions surely

I've had this same argument in playtesting ACTA with those who don't want to accurately portray the source material
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Xorrandor
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Postby Xorrandor » Tue May 15, 2007 5:26 pm

emperorpenguin wrote:I'd rather people be honest about the failings than constantly attempt to cover them up with false information. Quite a few people disputed the size of the figures.
They are just shy of 7 feet if you look at them next to a Challenger 2 and go with 32mm :)
Well, here's my current response to the scale argument:
"Yes, the infantry look too big. First, consider that they are all wearing 6 inch heels on their boots: that's what the basing does for you. Then consider that Mongoose decided soldiers are all 6 feet tall in the future. It does unfortunately add up." Most people will either say "OK, that's a little silly, but I guess it's not too out of whack." or "No, you're lying, M1's are like 15 feet tall." Now, I could whip out some calipers (if I had some) and take sub-mm accuracy measurements, just to do the math in front of everyone, but basically people seem to break down into two camps: close is good enough, or you are an evil evil person for trying to persuade me using numbers. I can't touch the second group, no matter what I do, so why bother trying?
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Postby Xorrandor » Tue May 15, 2007 5:29 pm

Templar wrote:Yes, well if scale is their biggest concern, perhaps they shouldn't be gaming in the first place.
Hey, you go to wargames with the gamers you have, not the gamers you want...
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Postby GhostWolf69 » Tue May 15, 2007 5:32 pm

Templar wrote::D

I know... but I would rather see more gravity defying stunts with a million MEA piled on trucks! lol
I'll see what I can do... :lol:

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Postby Hiromoon » Tue May 15, 2007 5:33 pm

Then just fess up and admit that the scale is wonky. You don't have to go into micro-measurements in an attempt to explain it.

Regardless, I revert back to my original statement - if the individual models were smaller and/or unbased, they would be a pain to move around individually, easy to lose, and detract from the game.
Then make them (by that, I mean the entire set, not just the infantry) larger. You don't have to make them smaller to make them all fit.
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Postby emperorpenguin » Tue May 15, 2007 6:11 pm

Xorrandor wrote: First, consider that they are all wearing 6 inch heels on their boots: that's what the basing does for you. Then consider that Mongoose decided soldiers are all 6 feet tall in the future. It does unfortunately add up." ?
nobody is measuring and including the bases. This is from the boot up
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Postby Xorrandor » Tue May 15, 2007 7:21 pm

emperorpenguin wrote:nobody is measuring and including the bases. This is from the boot up
I'm talking about people dropping by while we're playing, or looking at the stuff in the box. They certainly do look at the bases, or to be more precise, how high the head is compared to the top of a tank (or truck). Often I have to persuade them that one can actually see over the top of a truck; in my experience, few people have actually tried to do this, and think all trucks are 8 feet tall because they tower over cars...
Hiromoon wrote:Then just fess up and admit that the scale is wonky. You don't have to go into micro-measurements in an attempt to explain it.
I thought saying that all soldiers are 6 feet tall was fessing up and admiting the scale is wonky. I'm not going to fess up and say soldiers are 7 feet tall, because the numbers just don't support it. And even with the micro-measurements and the numbers worked out, I can't persuade some people otherwise on a forum. So how am I supposed to do it without the measurements in a casual conversation?
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Postby Hiromoon » Tue May 15, 2007 7:40 pm

Easy way to fess up about the scale being wonky. You don't even need to claim that the soldiers are 6 feet tall (which, in all honesty, still doesn't explain the lack of space in the Toyota...I mean, I'm 6'5" in height, and I commute to work in a Ford 150 Full cab, and I know there's enough room for eight of me plus crew).


Repeat after me: The scale is wonky.
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