Nolo'tar and Troligan

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Wulf Corbett
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:54 pm

hiffano wrote:I'd stick a few extra fins on the tail, and maybe near the wingtips and it becomes much more minbarilike, or at least minbai does disney :lol:
Who'll be the first to paint it stripey black & orange?

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Postby Alexb83 » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:55 pm

katadder wrote:
Alexb83 wrote:Dare I ask whether the Minbari will get to use that one, given that it's from the last shadow war?
its an out of use ship by the minbari, why would they use it? they gave it to the rangers to use.
the whole minbari should use ISA ships is actually getting quite annoying. the whitestars were built for the rangers, and the rangers only, without permission of the warrior caste. the nolo'tar is an outdated minbari ship given over to the rangers to fill a gap in their fleet and increase the number of ships they have available.
the minbari will not be getting any ISA ships to use.
Outdated... Minbari Ship... I think you've shown my point there. It'd simply have a limited ISD.
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Postby Alexb83 » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:57 pm

katadder wrote:well you could always put an ISD for the minbari ending in 1260 to represent its lack of use. then you can have it in as many minbari fleets as you want but will have no opponents in the game :) apart from shadows of course in the last war. but then you would need a whole minbari fleet from that era.
maybe for a supplement this would work - the previous shadow war with a minbari fleet to use back then, along with babylon 4 etc.
Le sigh. The Victory is in the EA fleet list, as a unique ship. Presumably this means that it can be fielded in tournaments. What have ISDs got to do with /anything/ in this game? Using them as an argument to decide whether anything can or can't go in a fleet is pointless with regards to competetive play. The fact is the ship is an option. And fluff-wise, again, this one should be an option for Minbari.
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Postby emperorpenguin » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:57 pm

katadder wrote:the minbari will not be getting any ISA ships to use.
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Postby katadder » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:01 pm

Alexb83 wrote:
katadder wrote:well you could always put an ISD for the minbari ending in 1260 to represent its lack of use. then you can have it in as many minbari fleets as you want but will have no opponents in the game :) apart from shadows of course in the last war. but then you would need a whole minbari fleet from that era.
maybe for a supplement this would work - the previous shadow war with a minbari fleet to use back then, along with babylon 4 etc.
Le sigh. The Victory is in the EA fleet list, as a unique ship. Presumably this means that it can be fielded in tournaments. What have ISDs got to do with /anything/ in this game? Using them as an argument to decide whether anything can or can't go in a fleet is pointless with regards to competetive play. The fact is the ship is an option. And fluff-wise, again, this one should be an option for Minbari.
the victory was EA at the time of the crusade list, therefore its in the crusade list.
if you do a minbari great war list for 1000 years before then you could add it into the minbari list. its not a current minbari ship, the same as the saggi even though EA cannot be used with an EA crusade list.
there would be more call for the early EA ships to be allowed in all EA lists than for a nolo'tar to be added to the minbari list. its outdated and not used by the minbari military. it is however used by the rangers.

and yes things are subject to change obviously as EP says, but i cant see this ship being added to the minbari. or the whitestar.
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Postby Burger » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:04 pm

katadder wrote:if you do a minbari great war list for 1000 years before then you could add it into the minbari list. its not a current minbari ship, the same as the saggi even though EA cannot be used with an EA crusade list.
But the Veshatan has ISD ending in 2207. Why is that in the same list as the Sharkaan, which entered service in 2261?
Not all fleets are sub-divided by ISD.
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Postby Kosh127 » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:05 pm

for everyone that is complaining you should just be happy that MGP is attempted to resculpt or overhaul there figs.
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Postby emperorpenguin » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:06 pm

Burger wrote:
katadder wrote:if you do a minbari great war list for 1000 years before then you could add it into the minbari list. its not a current minbari ship, the same as the saggi even though EA cannot be used with an EA crusade list.
But the Veshatan has ISD ending in 2207. Why is that in the same list as the Sharkaan, which entered service in 2261?
Not all fleets are sub-divided by ISD.
In my personal opinion the Veshatan shouldn't be in the game. Retired a generation before the Dilgar war, 40 years before the Earth-Minbari war, no need for it.
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Postby Burger » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:09 pm

emperorpenguin wrote:
Burger wrote:
katadder wrote:if you do a minbari great war list for 1000 years before then you could add it into the minbari list. its not a current minbari ship, the same as the saggi even though EA cannot be used with an EA crusade list.
But the Veshatan has ISD ending in 2207. Why is that in the same list as the Sharkaan, which entered service in 2261?
Not all fleets are sub-divided by ISD.
In my personal opinion the Veshatan shouldn't be in the game. Retired a generation before the Dilgar war, 40 years before the Earth-Minbari war, no need for it.
So where do you draw the line? Should the Dilgar fleet even be allowed, because it all blew up 20 years before B5 was constructed?

Mongoose has already set the precident, that their game is not set in any specific time period. That means not all ships have to have overlapping ISD's. There is no reason not to have a 50 year old ship, and no reason not to have a 1000 year old ship.
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Postby Alexb83 » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:15 pm

I'd tend to agree to an extent, afterall - noone really missed it when it was hardly usable. But as has been pointed out, half of the Minbari list if you go by ISDs shouldn't strictly ever be seen on the same table.
But like I say, ISDs have no bearing whatsoever on tournaments and even your average pickup game. Only in campaigns will they ever have any meaning.

My point is this: a certain race is being given access to a ship that IMO completely unbalances its normal fleet options, because it's so different... precise front arc beams and adaptive armour for a race with no other ship resembling it? Uh-huh... And all of this on the basis of a single ship being loaned to them for 5 years for a very specific mission. Riiiight.

Meanwhile, in other cases where ships are specifically built by a race and used by them on screen (or stated as such in dialogue), they're not a fieldable option - why?

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Postby katadder » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:17 pm

WSs are never used by the minbari. sure you could have the nolo'tar but its IMO outclassed by other minbari ships in its PL and so you wouldnt use it anyway.
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Postby Burger » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:18 pm

Alexb83 wrote:I'd tend to agree to an extent, afterall - noone really missed it when it was hardly usable. But as has been pointed out, half of the Minbari list if you go by ISDs shouldn't strictly ever be seen on the same table.
Not just the Minbari. Kutai's ISD is 2134+... does anyone really think they'd still be using them in 2261? Not likely, a 120-year-old ship would be used for junk storage and spare parts, thats about it!
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Postby emperorpenguin » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:18 pm

Burger wrote:So where do you draw the line? Should the Dilgar fleet even be allowed, because it all blew up 20 years before B5 was constructed?

Mongoose has already set the precident, that their game is not set in any specific time period. That means not all ships have to have overlapping ISD's.
Well as you say there is a precedent.
Personally I'd have done the Dilgar along the lines of the Minbari war book. I'd have prefered a 2230-47 era for all fleets with lists. Then a B5 era 47-67 and Crusade era.

Of course though people like tournament play so we get Dilgar balanced versus Crusade EA. If it were historical naval warfare that'd be akin to 1932 fleets being equal to 1967 fleets

The problem with the Veshatan is the ISD is outside any of the time frames unlike the other ships. So why not have an EA ship of ISD 2160-2175 say? Or Centauri 2007-2100?
The ISDs should really fall that they are in use between 2230 (our start date) and 2280 thereabouts
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Postby Burger » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:19 pm

katadder wrote:its IMO outclassed by other minbari ships in its PL
Then its in the wrong PL.
PL is supposed to be balanced.
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Postby emperorpenguin » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:20 pm

Burger wrote:
Alexb83 wrote:I'd tend to agree to an extent, afterall - noone really missed it when it was hardly usable. But as has been pointed out, half of the Minbari list if you go by ISDs shouldn't strictly ever be seen on the same table.
Not just the Minbari. Kutai's ISD is 2134+... does anyone really think they'd still be using them in 2261? Not likely, a 120-year-old ship would be used for junk storage and spare parts, thats about it!
The Primus is supposed to be 200+ years old.....

Realistically would YOU serve on a ship that old? :wink:
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Postby katadder » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:21 pm

no, fleets ar balanced, you must know that seeing as the narn bat sqaud is better than any other 10 skirmish ships.
some ships are better at the same PL. but put them into a fleet it all changes.
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Postby Burger » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:22 pm

Well I guess nobody can really comment until we see the stats in S&P! Its all just speculation until then.
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Postby H » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:23 pm

oh god no, not the balance thing again. Why is everyone being so contencious?
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Postby Alexb83 » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:25 pm

emperorpenguin wrote:
Burger wrote:
Alexb83 wrote:I'd tend to agree to an extent, afterall - noone really missed it when it was hardly usable. But as has been pointed out, half of the Minbari list if you go by ISDs shouldn't strictly ever be seen on the same table.
Not just the Minbari. Kutai's ISD is 2134+... does anyone really think they'd still be using them in 2261? Not likely, a 120-year-old ship would be used for junk storage and spare parts, thats about it!
The Primus is supposed to be 200+ years old.....

Realistically would YOU serve on a ship that old? :wink:
We have naval vessels that have historically served for up to 50-60 years at a stretch with extended refits (Look at USS Midway, or some of the Iowa class). And ships in space don't rust ;)
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Postby Alexb83 » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:27 pm

katadder wrote:WSs are never used by the minbari. sure you could have the nolo'tar but its IMO outclassed by other minbari ships in its PL and so you wouldnt use it anyway.
*facepalms* Do I really need to post video footage of the Minbari using the Whitestars in the show? It has to be on youtube or something somewhere...

Give them the option, and at least you'd have the choice, not only to take the ship, but to use different tactics that come with it.
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