M2 Bradley stats

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Postby Pietia » Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:36 pm

It is easier to notice such things if you have both Bradley and Abrams in the same scale on the shelf :D .
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Postby Jellicoe » Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:47 pm

Pietia wrote:It is easier to notice such things if you have both Bradley and Abrams in the same scale on the shelf :D .
As of course everyone just happens to have :wink:
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Postby Mr Evil » Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:54 pm

bradleys and warriors are just the modern light tank replacment in may ways , well thats how i see it any ways.
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Postby Hiromoon » Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:01 pm

dsfrankevo wrote: Having been a Mech Infantryman I can shed some light ....

- the M2 carries a dismount team of 6 troops and the basic TOW load is 7 - 2 missiles in the launcher and 5 in the racks inside the IFV

- the M3 Cav version has a 2 man dismount team and a basic TOW load of 10 - 2 in the launcher and 8 inside - truth be told, the additional TOW rack space is often used for other gear

BEFORE the TOW can fire the launcher must be erected - it rotates 90 degrees from the stowed/travel position to the "UP" firing position - the bradley doesn't move with the launcher in the "up" position -

Once the launcher fires the vehicle must stay stationary while the gunner "tracks" the target - keeping the crosshairs on the target - as the missile flies down range - flight time to the max range of 3750 meters is 20 seconds - believe me - this seems like FOREVER while you are watching and waiting for your missile to impact & hoping not to take return fire before impact

The second missile can be fired shortly after the first impacts - once the 2d TOW in the launcher is fired - the launcher must be dropped and reloaded from inside - this takes lots of time in a combat situation

For the Bradley to move again (without damaging the TOW launcher) the launcher must be dropped to the travel position

In game terms - I think it is absolutely necessary to take a ready action before firing - the argument can be made that a ready (or gun - fire) action must be taken before the Bradley can move again - I can also say at least 1 ready action would needed to reload a single missile in the launcher - after dropped to the travel position - this is pretty near impossible to do on the move

ATGMs are great stand off vehicle killers - but they are not "Offensive" weapon systems - these limitations are pretty much the same for all 1st and 2d generation ATGM systems

BTW the "Fire & Forget" TOW variant was abandoned in early testing in 2002 - no current plans to revive the project.
Thanks man.

Shame they couldn't mount LOSATs on the Bradley then.
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Postby Gibbs » Sat Mar 24, 2007 10:13 pm

dsfrankevo wrote:BEFORE the TOW can fire the launcher must be erected - it rotates 90 degrees from the stowed/travel position to the "UP" firing position - the bradley doesn't move with the launcher in the "up" position -

Once the launcher fires the vehicle must stay stationary while the gunner "tracks" the target - keeping the crosshairs on the target - as the missile flies down range - flight time to the max range of 3750 meters is 20 seconds - believe me - this seems like FOREVER while you are watching and waiting for your missile to impact & hoping not to take return fire before impact

The second missile can be fired shortly after the first impacts - once the 2d TOW in the launcher is fired - the launcher must be dropped and reloaded from inside - this takes lots of time in a combat situation

For the Bradley to move again (without damaging the TOW launcher) the launcher must be dropped to the travel position

In game terms - I think it is absolutely necessary to take a ready action before firing - the argument can be made that a ready (or gun - fire) action must be taken before the Bradley can move again - I can also say at least 1 ready action would needed to reload a single missile in the launcher - after dropped to the travel position - this is pretty near impossible to do on the move

ATGMs are great stand off vehicle killers - but they are not "Offensive" weapon systems - these limitations are pretty much the same for all 1st and 2d generation ATGM systems
So if I understand this correctly, the Bradley's TOW launcher has two positions, travel and fire. In travel it cannot fire (obviously) and in fire it cannot move.

I don't suppose anyone knows the rationale behind that decision do they?

Presunably it would be about accuracy, having the target moving and keeping your cross-hairs on them is a lot easier than having both you and the target moving while trying to keep you cross-hairs on them.

Wouldn't this make the bradley a sitting duck while firing and reloading?

In game terms having to perform a ready action (load/fire position) then a fire action followed by next turn a ready action (load/stow) then a move means Bradleys will be severly limited in their AT cabability (although being able to take a hull down position and doing this should be fine).

This may explain why the Bradley is only 250pts and backs up dsfrank's reminder that the Bradley isn't an offensive AT vehicle.

What are others thoughts?
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Postby Shadow4ce » Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:50 pm

TOW missiles aren't exactly cheap. Fire one while on the move, driver hits say a ditch 4-5 seconds into TOW flight time. Gunner's cross-hair bounces up and down, TOW slams into ground 200 yards in front of intended target, alerting him to his threat and giving him a real nice point of reference for where it came from. :wink:

PS On the man-portable units, I've seen more than a few grunts fire their first one ever and the shock of all that hot gas going behind and the rapid movement of the missile going down range, causes them to flinch and it plows into the ground about 50-75 yards downrange. :oops: There is a reason they fire practice rounds without live munitions in them during training with this weapon system.
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Postby Gibbs » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:21 am

Shadow4ce wrote:TOW missiles aren't exactly cheap. Fire one while on the move, driver hits say a ditch 4-5 seconds into TOW flight time. Gunner's cross-hair bounces up and down, TOW slams into ground 200 yards in front of intended target, alerting him to his threat and giving him a real nice point of reference for where it came from. :wink:
Makes sense.
Shadow4ce wrote:PS On the man-portable units, I've seen more than a few grunts fire their first one ever and the shock of all that hot gas going behind and the rapid movement of the missile going down range, causes them to flinch and it plows into the ground about 50-75 yards downrange. :oops: There is a reason they fire practice rounds without live munitions in them during training with this weapon system.
Yeah...just had a flash back to the stinger lancher scene in Ture Lies. Not in terms of missing just in terms of the hot gas expulsion out the back of the launcher. :lol:

Well, it certainly reinforces the idea that the Bradley's role is not primarily AT. Having to perform a ready action before shooting and after shooting may remind players of tha fact.
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Postby Mr Evil » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:25 am

maybe have it so that you need a ready action to fire it so you cant move or shoot other weapons at the same time.
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Postby Gibbs » Sun Mar 25, 2007 12:43 am

Sounds good. That's just adding another line into the text of the TOW saying that if it is fired, it is the only weapon on the Bradley that may be fired in that shoot action.

But will the ammunition on the Bradley be limited to 7 shots?
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Postby dsfrankevo » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:06 am

Gibbs wrote:So if I understand this correctly, the Bradley's TOW launcher has two positions, travel and fire. In travel it cannot fire (obviously) and in fire it cannot move.

I don't suppose anyone knows the rationale behind that decision do they?
It is a trait that pretty much all Tracked Vehicles that sport TOWs share - the M901ITV has a twin launcher that is erected before firing (the LAV TOW sports the same ITV launcher)

the old M150 - M113 w/ pintle mounted TOW stowed the launcher in the track and popped up to launch

one reason is to allow it to be reloaded without exposing the crew (called TOW under armor)

another is that the TOW is NOT a fire and move system - quite advanced for when it was designed (late 1960s) but dated now - 40 years later - the bradley is more that 20 yrs old
Gibbs wrote:Wouldn't this make the bradley a sitting duck while firing and reloading?
One primary defense is the stand off range 3750m was much longer than accurate tank fire back in the day - still a long way - doctrine is to engage w/ TOWs at the longest possible range as missile effectiveness is not limited by range - just the rocket burn time and control wire length

the other is that the launcher rises above the plane of the vehicle so it can fire in turret defilade - drop the launcher to reload and deny the enemy anything to shoot back at

the flight time of the missile and the stationary nature of 2d generation ATGMs dictate that they are not offensive weapon systems - so these drawbacks were considered acceptable
Gibbs wrote:In game terms having to perform a ready action (load/fire position) then a fire action followed by next turn a ready action (load/stow) then a move means Bradleys will be severly limited in their AT cabability (although being able to take a hull down position and doing this should be fine).
Absolutely true 8) - these limitations should impact other ATGM armed vehicles of that era as well (BMP1/2 BRDM ATs - LAV-TOW etc.- not so much with the next gen like Shadow or the BMP3 for instance
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Gibbs
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Postby Gibbs » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:31 am

Thanks for the comprehensive answer dsfank. That's great to know, I wasn't sure how TOW operated and assumed that the Bradley's TOW was pretty much a rocket launcher on the side of the turret a la hunter killer missiles in 40k.

To have a Bradley concealed, have the TOW launcer pop up and fire from a long range away and have someone guiding it would be a truly terrifying experience. Thanks for the clarification.
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Postby britneyfan97 » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:33 am

Great info here.
the other is that the launcher rises above the plane of the vehicle so it can fire in turret defilade - drop the launcher to reload and deny the enemy anything to shoot back at
To represent this I would love to see a removable launcher in the extended postion. Or even just an aiming device to be placed atop the model, for use in determining LOS from the launcher in the extended position.
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Postby Gibbs » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:42 am

Maybe GF9 will make a token for it. They're doing others...
if you didn't know already checkout this link
http://www.evocommand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=291

Yeah, a rule about being able to fire above over an obstacle that is its height would be very worrying I could see it now...
"I'm sorry you don't have LOS to my bradley."
"Then how did it take out my Tyoe 99"
"It has LOS on you but then stowed its TOW."
"grumble."
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Postby Shadow4ce » Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:35 am

The grumble followed by throwing the dice across the room and storming out, no doubt, hehe.
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Postby Gibbs » Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:38 am

Either that or murder...whichever your opponent is known for. :lol:
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Shadow4ce
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Postby Shadow4ce » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:49 am

:shock:
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Gibbs
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Postby Gibbs » Sun Mar 25, 2007 5:51 am

Yeah I know, I've got to stop playing with the wrong crowd.
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Postby lastbesthope » Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:30 pm

Gibbs wrote:Maybe GF9 will make a token for it. They're doing others...
if you didn't know already checkout this link
http://www.evocommand.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=291
Be sure to let us know when they are released.

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Shadow4ce
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Postby Shadow4ce » Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:44 pm

Hopefully GF9 will take the time to actually play a few scenarios with the game and put the right mix of markers in a pack. As they have listed it now, the "suppression" markers are way to few (3), the "reacted" markers are a few too many (10), and there are no "readied" markers whatsoever. They just expect you to use the Target Radius Marker as a way to check a readied unit's field of fire/foward arc. Lame.

One would almost have to buy 3-4 packs to get enough suppression markers, perhaps even more. Somehow don't think I'll ever need 40 "reacted" markers, unless you decide to mark each individual soldier rather than just the squad/section leader.
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Postby lastbesthope » Sun Mar 25, 2007 4:51 pm

Where are the counter pack contents listed? Couldn't find them on the GF9 site.

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