What on earth is going on ?

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
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What on earth is going on ?

Postby hamlrt » Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:35 pm

Hello There ,
I have been umming and aah'ing about writing this post , to try and save myself from rabid fanboys, so lets get a few things straight first....
I really like SSt
I really like the miniatures
and as this is a free speech forum........
I dont intend by act or deed to insult mongoose or any other players OK

I am somewhat concerned about the state of my favourite game , MGP has promised so much over the past several months and quite honestly nothing has materialised.
I recently saw for the first time the mini's for battlefield evo amd to be honest i really was'nt impressed , the tank i saw was i am afraid to say rather expensive and in my opinion -cheaply made and quite badly painted-and no i dont see why after shelling out hardearned cash i should be forced to repaint .
The figures - middle eastern chaps- nicely molded with a very much ho hum paint job , the eyes were ummm...splodges , perhaps better to have non painted eyes.
Is this the way the SST prepaints will look ?
will the vehicles be no better than a cheapo kids toy ?
I had heard that a pro painted figure was put next to a prepaint and no difference could be found- how true is this ?
Will MGP literally kill SSt , perhaps in the same way that GW has almost killed their own company ?
I for one really enjoy SSt it is a grown up version of 40k , which in my opinion is absolutely great , now will it be kiddy-fied and dumbed down
to appeal to the instant fix pre-teens and teens . I may just add this is NOT a attack on teenagers , some of my best opponents at the games club are 17-19'rs .
I will read with interest the replies to the post .

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Postby hamlrt » Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:49 pm

I looked at the S&P article about SST evo , models look nice but they are mainly prototypes , will the ACTUAL models be the same ?
H

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Postby Mr Evil » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:01 pm

who knows we should have an idea soon or at latest next month, the production modles are probably on boats at the moment on there way over. till then thingers crossed, that said there simpler schemes to do that the bf evo stuff .
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Postby Rabidchild » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:52 pm

As much as I like BF:Evo I'm glad Mongoose came out with it first so they could learn from their mistakes and get a clear view of the pitfalls involved in the prepainted industry. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that SST's larger minis, scale and Sci-fi look will make the prepainted better. That being said, even if the arachnids aren't painted all that well I'll still be buying them just so I don't have to paint them all.
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Re: What on earth is going on ?

Postby Aniyn » Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:53 pm

hamlrt wrote:I had heard that a pro painted figure was put next to a prepaint and no difference could be found- how true is this ?
It is true that matt said that. However, after seeing how the BFE infantry came out, I'm leaning towards saying it's total BS.
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Postby Poko » Thu Mar 01, 2007 8:49 pm

he said it before the first production runs of the BFE minis came, based on the prototypes they sent him. this being said, i think that Wave 2 is better looking due to the crisis that Wave 1 caused, and hopefully SST will avoid any such mishap.

oh, and the new exos rules just rock!
the "improved sensors", aprat from being supremly nasty, are fluffy too, as the suits in the book fought in a very loose formation.
and that "immune to suppresion" makes Pokos happy :D
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Re: What on earth is going on ?

Postby gorkamorka » Thu Mar 01, 2007 11:52 pm

hamlrt wrote:Hello There ,
I have been umming and aah'ing about writing this post , to try and save myself from rabid fanboys, so lets get a few things straight first....
I really like SSt
I really like the miniatures
and as this is a free speech forum........
I dont intend by act or deed to insult mongoose or any other players OK

I am somewhat concerned about the state of my favourite game , MGP has promised so much over the past several months and quite honestly nothing has materialised.
I recently saw for the first time the mini's for battlefield evo amd to be honest i really was'nt impressed , the tank i saw was i am afraid to say rather expensive and in my opinion -cheaply made and quite badly painted-and no i dont see why after shelling out hardearned cash i should be forced to repaint .
The figures - middle eastern chaps- nicely molded with a very much ho hum paint job , the eyes were ummm...splodges , perhaps better to have non painted eyes.
Is this the way the SST prepaints will look ?
will the vehicles be no better than a cheapo kids toy ?
I had heard that a pro painted figure was put next to a prepaint and no difference could be found- how true is this ?
Will MGP literally kill SSt , perhaps in the same way that GW has almost killed their own company ?
I for one really enjoy SSt it is a grown up version of 40k , which in my opinion is absolutely great , now will it be kiddy-fied and dumbed down
to appeal to the instant fix pre-teens and teens . I may just add this is NOT a attack on teenagers , some of my best opponents at the games club are 17-19'rs .
I will read with interest the replies to the post .

ACTION 2007 wargames convention
3hrs from Dover-Free entry
SST tournament
battlefield evo demos
participation games
demo games
bar
24hr gaming
traders from all over Europe
Come one Come All - March 16,17,18 2007
You have every right to be concerned, but in my view I feel that the prepaints of the BF 2 line in hindsight are exactly what was going to happen to SST if it in fact would have come out first.

Believe it or not, it seems to take alot more effort to put together a prepaint game then it does for the nonpainted and bare metal/ plastics.
If you look at Mage Knight when it first came out, and look along the lifeline of this game, it is clear that the paintjobs evolve.
Looking at the Heroclicks, or the StarWars minis, they all have the same issues in the gloped on paintjobs, and as the lines slowly evolve in the later waves, you see the improvement.

IMO Horrorclicks is by far one of the better productions of the clicks games, and after seeing the Chtullu, I was interested, and as well as is the latest StarWars Bounty Hunter suppliments, they have thier moments.
I am not a big fan of these games, though I can appreciate the idea behind them. A non effort way to play a game without having to struggle against the status quo in your local club.

Alot of people go through it, when you play against the guy that just runs over to the rack, buys a bunch of figs and plays them as is- sans heads weapons and arms, the metal gunked on glue of the flavor of the month army, or whatever other people have seen. ( these examples are ones I can attest to, as Ive played against them.)

In BF evo, I feel that we were all thrown for a loop, but it is in hindsight a perfect example of Murphy taking a giant dump on Matt and Company, who put thier name out there and made the bold statements.
Personally, I don't see an issue like that happening again, for the simple fact that SST has alot of class, and from the rabid effort on alot of peoples part, I think we'd all probibly roll on over the mongoose and start painting them up ourselves before we'd let that happen again... Another factor to consider is the Rebellion merger.
All in all, I have a higher confidence in the SST line, because of the new news of the backup of Rebellion. The AD2000 lines are almost rock solid in my book. Even though they are not as well known here in the States, I can say that it was always a good read to me, and I wasn't ever an issue of sucky, tired stories. My issue was always availability, as in there was very little in my world.

There will be alot of people who might roll over my opinion and tell you a bunch of huey about how great BFevo is, and that you don't need to worry, but the simple truth of the matter is that there are alot more factors involved now with the new idea of the prepaints, and there are no promises to be made. The information, the preproduction models, and the information are, as of late, old, but the premis behind the new game being painted, it being a bit cleaned up as the rules are concerned, and that something is going to come out with some paint on it are enough for me to be satisfied with for now.
Of course, if they look like the cat walked on them with paint on its paws, the vehicles look half missing, and they are slopped out there without planning, I'll probibly go off, but I feel that there is alot of room for improvment, and they are doing a great job of learning from mistakes, and shoring up alot of issues with the products.

In the next couple of months, I'm sure Mongoose will have thier stuff together, and we will be seeing SST EVO out before the end of the year.
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Re: What on earth is going on ?

Postby MongooseMatt » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:13 am

hamlrt wrote: I am somewhat concerned about the state of my favourite game , MGP has promised so much over the past several months and quite honestly nothing has materialised.
It comes down to this - you can have it now, or you can have it done right. . .
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Postby Major Chaos » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:28 am

MPG is always trying to make it's products better. I do really believe that. However, I have said before they seem sometimes to have too many pokers in the fire, which leads to a poor ability to follow through with any level of accuracy. This situation is combined with their habit of making promises they are not sure they can keep is very frustrating for their customers.

I hope I'm not to dissapointed with the BF:Evo I get tomorrow but really I have a ton of painted mini's so im not that worried. I just need to be able to read the cards for SST (after printing) so I can use them....

Oh well we are getting closer.

Good luck to us!
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My review

Postby brook » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:48 am

Here is my review.
BF/EVO is good...very good. The rules are simple and flexible.

The miniatures are also good. I purchased several hundred dollars of miniatures after promising myself that I wasn't going to get into BF/EVO.

I hope that you continue the work with SST EVO. Personally, I think that SST needs more writing devoted to background and story. I am hoping that your going to add significantly to the story.

Looking forward to more more EVO.
Thanks
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Postby Reborn » Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:10 am

I don't understand why people keep saying that want more background.

1) Go read the book
2) Go watch the film
3) Watch the TV series
4) If you're REALLY desperate, watch the other film
5) Play the computer game

Plus all of the books had fluff in anyway, such as the documenting of the Road to Victory in the MI book.

I don't think it's easy for the guys to just make stuff up - there's plenty of canon to trip over and I just don't think it's necessary.

Just my £0.02.
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Postby MaxSteiner » Fri Mar 02, 2007 7:30 am

Yeah that might be true, but surely some of that should be presented in the publications?
People can just go play some computer games, read a book and watch the film which only follows the end chapter or the (admitadly great) series, but that only really helps you for the MI. For that matter they dont help at all if you're new to the game/setting
Bugs and skinnies have next to no cohesive fluff at the moment eith in any of the sources, and the Forth have none at all yet.

It might be harder than people think, but Mongoose is a RPG company, if anyones qualified to write in fluff, Mongoose is! (And I dont think fluff is all that difficult, a semi decent 1 page story alongside a sterling piece of artwork can do more to flesh out a setting than say, six odd pages telling you every single rank in the MI...) One of the reasons the game didnt exactly soar was that the books were a little light on background IMO.
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Postby hamlrt » Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:00 am

Hello There ,
Well i seemed to have opened a can of worms here.
A reply from Matt Sprange-oh my .
Well i read the other posts , and very interesting they were , however i think that the most interesting post was from Gorkamorka . I must also admit that my post was perhaps a little bleak .
I am prepared to wait and see , and i truly hope i wo'nt be dissapointed.
I shall still be playing SSt and GOMC1 , and i still like MGP .
I really just wanted to air my thoughts.

On a brighter note , I shall be running a SST tournament March 16,17,18
at ACTION 2007 nr Monchengladbach Germany. Its a free entry convention.
Everyone is welcome and its only three hours from Dover , accomadation is available 7 euros per night (it aint the ritz but its really ok) . 24hr gaming. Bar. Demos, participation games ect ect.

Hamlrt
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Postby BuShips » Fri Mar 02, 2007 8:19 am

After all that has transpired over the last year, I think we can have a bit more of a wait. It's hard. Matt, Alex et al are working their arses off as well as taking a huge risk, but I now am of the opinion that better times are in front of us. With the mix of models that is going to be offered, keeping the old metal kits and moving ahead with PPMs, I think there will be room for all. Remember this was all a method for Matt to expand upon the game license as well as to bring in an entire cadre of gamers that might have never jumped into the hobby. I will even state that I feel there will be a "mixing of the blood" between the casual PPM gamer that will see some of the original unpainted kits and decide to tackle them as he/she is already hooked into the game system. This will all have to be tried and tested, but I think it has a future, and so do we. :D

I just completed quite a project in making up a bunch of Exosuits and in writing up how I modified them as well as writing up some "fluff" for background material. I just want to say that I do not think it was for nothing, and I'm sure that I will be able to combine them with my other substancial collection and will be adding even more PPM models to my armies. Like the troops in WW2 that held Pegasus Bridge, we are holding our station until Mongoose brings in the reinforcements. I can hear those words now, "Hold until relieved". :wink:
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Postby brook » Fri Mar 02, 2007 1:54 pm

Reborn wrote:I don't understand why people keep saying that want more background.

1) Go read the book
2) Go watch the film
3) Watch the TV series
4) If you're REALLY desperate, watch the other film
5) Play the computer game

Plus all of the books had fluff in anyway, such as the documenting of the Road to Victory in the MI book.

I don't think it's easy for the guys to just make stuff up - there's plenty of canon to trip over and I just don't think it's necessary.
Reborn, like you said "people (the customers) keep saying it. Maybe there is something to it.

The two largest games in circulation (40k and WFB) are almost nothing butt fluff. I love the book and the first movie. I thought Road to Klendathu was a little skimpy. Besides more publications equal more sales..more income. I think a lot of the customers want more. It is just my opinion. If you are not into the fluff, don't buy the extras.

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Postby Mr Evil » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:06 pm

Fluff can be restrictive as well.

personaly ive never totaly followed fluff as there are always exceptions.

2 page pdf on how to construct an army or a book in full colour with storys about how bob the arachnid defeated a small town on tulak, i think the pdf is more my cup of tea.

the universe is big, and like i say to my kids, develop your own damn imagination.

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Postby Poko » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:36 pm

personaly ive never totaly followed fluff as there are always exceptions.
and it's all fine, the fluff is not the rules, you can break it. but having lots of "official" background is always a good idea-WHB and 40k are rather bad system, we all agree.yet they have very distinctive fluff,and simply truckloads of it.

noone's frcing MG to close the gap in 2 years,this being said. :wink:
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Postby CudaHP » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:48 pm

Just remember SST is a licensed product line and MGP is limited on what they are permitted to do regarding fluff.

I have a feeling that Robert Heinlein's estate have a pretty fair amount of control over some aspects of print publication.

When anyone compares 40K fluff, with over twenty years of continuous publishing related to their "Universe" with Mongoose and SST after less than three years, it is not really fair comparison for Mongoose.

GW has taken whatever they felt like and called it their own (Power Armour anyone?) without regard for authors rights etc. while MGP labors under an actual licensing process with Heinlein's Estate.

Two very different situations.

I expect, as totally new races of MGP's creation come on line in the SST universe, we will see a higher level of fluff.

This is why I love Historical Wargames you can do verifiable research into your units: composition, where and when fought, against whom, how armed and organized etc.

WWII has millions of pages of information available, if you care to use it.

Different strokes, Different folks.

I plan on giving MGP plenty of opportunity to furnish us with what we all want. :D :D :D :D
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Postby Turtle » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:32 am

Actually, their deal is with Sony, not the Heinlein estate. After the debacle with the SST movie, the Heinlein estate is no longer optioning the Starship Troopers license, and I don't think they're licensing anything else.
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Postby katadder » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:38 am

Poko wrote:
personaly ive never totaly followed fluff as there are always exceptions.
and it's all fine, the fluff is not the rules, you can break it. but having lots of "official" background is always a good idea-WHB and 40k are rather bad system, we all agree.yet they have very distinctive fluff,and simply truckloads of it.

noone's frcing MG to close the gap in 2 years,this being said. :wink:
the problem with 40k/fantasy fluff is that GW changes it on a whim. most of us that play games belonging to them ignore the fluff as it will prob change next year or the year after at the latest anyway.
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