Maybe a request for EA.

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Postby Morgoth » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:01 pm

hiffano wrote:The Poseidon is in effect very similar to the drakh mo ship, in that once it launches it's ships, it's a very large number of VP (and XP in campaigns) floating around with little purpose apart from a command bonus (and fleet carrier for the poseidon). I think both need some work to make them viable in their own right (yes I know 8 raiders from a moship is amazing and pretty scary, but the moship itself is cack. but then look at the WS carrier, It's a good ship on it's own, and carries skirmish ships as well, although how a WS fighter is comparable to a raider i don'ty know! plus the WS carrier has fleet carrier to recycly the damned fighters)
The problem with carriers is that they shouldn't be amongst the thick of things anyway, unless ambushed or the like. Thats the whole point of carriers, you let the fighters do the travelling to the battle whilst the carrier stays along way away safe from attack. Carriers should be off board supoprt units really. After all in WW2 you didn't see carriers directly attack a battleship..it would get blown to pieces but its compliment of fighters could do it whilst the carrier stayed way way away safe from the battleships guns.
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Postby captainsmirk » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:03 pm

Which would be represented by not buying the carrier at all but a shed load of Patrol level fighter wings...


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Postby Morgoth » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:07 pm

Agreed - to make a carrier viable its gotta be able to contribute something worthwhile and be able to look after itself, or why bother - just buy fighter wings instead
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Postby H » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:11 pm

which turn out more expensive in a campaign, for some ships.

let me work it out.
ok, Drakh mo-ship. cost 25 pRR. Contains potentially 8 raiders
8 raiders cost, 80 RR

Whitestar carrier (I dunno how many it carries? if we assume 5?) then the carrier costs 25 RR, the fighters cost 50 alone.

Poseidon, here I am really unsire, but cost of a poseidon, 25 carries something like 16 flights doesn't it? which is what? 4 wings? so 20 um, I may have blown my maths and lack of knowledge at this point. ;-)
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Postby Silvereye » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:21 pm

There is the Morshin too, 8 Nials and 1 Flyer come to 42.5 RR points when bought seperately. A Morshin loaded with auxillary craft is a steal at 20 RR points.
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Postby Burger » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:22 pm

hiffano wrote:let me work it out.
ok, Drakh mo-ship. cost 25 pRR. Contains potentially 8 raiders
8 raiders cost, 80 RR

Whitestar carrier (I dunno how many it carries? if we assume 5?) then the carrier costs 25 RR, the fighters cost 50 alone.
WS Carrier carries 8 fighters. But thats really not a fair comparison, because the WS Fighters are sooo definitely not worth 10 RR each. They are good yes, but not worth anywhere near 1 Skirmish point.
Silvereye wrote:There is the Morshin too, 8 Nials and 1 Flyer come to 42.5 RR points when bought seperately. A Morshin loaded with auxillary craft is a steal at 20 RR points.
Not really a fair comparison either because everyone knows Nials are quite blatantly overpriced at 1 per wing. Although, Morshin is still good value, yes :)
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Postby tneva82 » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:26 pm

hiffano wrote:Whitestar carrier (I dunno how many it carries? if we assume 5?) then the carrier costs 25 RR, the fighters cost 50 alone.
Even better. 8 of those little buggers.
Poseidon, here I am really unsire, but cost of a poseidon, 25 carries something like 16 flights doesn't it? which is what? 4 wings? so 20 um, I may have blown my maths and lack of knowledge at this point. ;-)
16 fighters.
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Postby CZuschlag » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:28 pm

And in campaigns, all those Aux Craft Carriers regenerate fighters for free every turn!

Free fighters every turn? Brilliant!
Brilliant!

Also remember as an extra cherry on top, the Drakh Mothership gives you a 4 free breaching pods as well .... There another 6 RR or so of value. Gets us to 111 for 25 = which makes the Mothership a 77% off sale. Add one free breaching pod if you lost one for as long as the shortage and the ship live? Heck, you probably won't find that kind of deal on a used truss.

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Postby Locutus9956 » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:34 pm

Erm since when? Last I checked carriers DONT replenish their fighters for free, they can refil them for free if they 'return to HQ' missing a turn but thats all.
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Postby Burger » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:37 pm

Fleet carriers (normal carriers too? can't remember) regenerate 2 flights per turn.
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:41 pm

Burger wrote:Fleet carriers (normal carriers too? can't remember) regenerate 2 flights per turn.
CAMPAIGN Turn, of course.

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Postby Burger » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:42 pm

Yes of course since we're talking about buying things with RR and sending ships back to HQ, we are naturally talking about campaign turn rather than game turn...
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Postby Silvereye » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:45 pm

Armageddon, Page 6 wrote:Ships with the Carrier trait may automatically replenish two lost flights of auxillary craft in the Repairs and Reinforcements phase each turn.
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Postby CZuschlag » Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:48 pm

Back to topic, the so Prime Carriers right now do serve a purpose -- one which is, unfortunately, largely based on the economic idiosyncrasies of the current ACTA-editon campaign. Locutus larglely exposes the only major exceptions, normally -- many of which are merely ships that get their PL in aux craft on board: the Morshin, the Avengers.

We could solve this three ways -- yet more fighters, make the ships nastier, or give the carrier something special.

The Morshin follows the first theory. You get your Aux craft worth off the Carrier from the very beginning. 9 Aux Craft would actually cost MORE than 1 Battle to buy independently. Done deal. Sounds like a fixing option to the Balavarix.

The Whitestar Carrier follows the second theory. The fighters are just one element of what it brings. This hybrid carrier is not only a Prime Mover, on the table, it's a prime threat. This is certainly a fix option to the Brokados.

The third way is to establish some additional property or campaign value that would boost the vessel in question. Enchancements to Fleet Carrier might do this. Other Prime Movers that aren't fleet carriers could get basic this instead (Old Avenger maybe, Balavarin, Amar, T'Rann, Milani, Raider Carrier, Garasoch). Maybe it even has a special campaign function where it interferes with other's economics (general raiding throughout by fighters interrupt supply networks in deep space without warning or intercept). Now I'm grasping at straws.

Shows how ingrained the problem is.

EDIT: Crap, I cannot type. Sorry for the typos. Meh.
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Postby Silvereye » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:03 pm

CZuschlag wrote:The third way is to establish some additional property or campaign value that would boost the vessel in question.
Trouble is, they are also used in one-off pickup gamesas well as campaigns.
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Postby CZuschlag » Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:21 pm

Yep, for pickup games, I agree, this'd do nothing. It makes sense that there'd be a major difference in capabilities and implications at an Operational level than at a Tactical level, and this would simulate that in a campaign (which are, indeed Operational Level conflicts.) But as far as getting them in your local pick-up game? I can come up with some effects that I can only barely fluff out that would make having one vs. a player without one a BIG DEAL, but ... no guarantees (CQ penalies to opposing fleets [lack of supplies recently?] .... get to pick a totally differnt fleet to fight your opponent so long as you buy one of these things and your opponent doesnt [supercarrier = scouting done right]? Delayed entry of enemy ships, Jutland style? I'm grasping at straws here. Or drowning. Definitely drowning.)
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Postby Target » Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:54 am

Thinking about the Poseidon, what if it was battle instead & the Avenger stayed at raid without the fleet carrier ability, would it be to much?
Avenger is fine at raid. The Poseidon is quite easy to take out, did once with 3 SFOS Demos ( Squadron) jumped ran the the Gauntlet of Nova's, 1 didn't make it, did a serious amount of damage & a Primus finished her off later with 1 Demos limped off the board before the Nova's could finish her off. If Demos's can do that while running a gaunlet of Nova's & get through the interceptors, it's probably more like a Battle priority than War.
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Postby Silvereye » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:21 pm

One of the 2e announcements said the Posiedon was getting tweaked.

However, dropping only the EA carriers down is probably a bit OTT. So what about dropping all the dedicated carriers (excluding the White Star) down a Priority level? How would that change things, as most empty carriers are definitely under-strength for their PL. Their strength lies in the fighters they carry.
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Postby Locutus9956 » Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:23 pm

Well from what Ive heard the Posseidon is being changed VERY slightly, but in a manner that should improve matters no end :)
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Postby Target » Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:03 pm

Silvereye wrote:One of the 2e announcements said the Posiedon was getting tweaked.

However, dropping only the EA carriers down is probably a bit OTT. So what about dropping all the dedicated carriers (excluding the White Star) down a Priority level? How would that change things, as most empty carriers are definitely under-strength for their PL. Their strength lies in the fighters they carry.
I think the point is even with their fighters they are still weak unless your foe has limited arc coverage. I could see that 16 T-Bolts would be to much but thats more the T-Bolts superiority to virtually every other fighter. hull 5 , 2+ dodge, atmo + one best weapon load outs. It should be hull 4, probably it's missles reduced 1 AD,AP,Pecise this gives the same chance to crit as the 2 AD missles but less overall damaging ability. Being hull 5 & 2+ dodge is slightly wrong, hull 5 should be 3+.
Talking current rules since fighters change in 2 edition.
There isn't too many dedicated carriers that would need droped as the rest have superior firepower eg Morshin & Balvarix & the Avenger we know is fine at raid by the Early years version. Sounds like we are talking about a record :lol:

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