New tactics for an Evo world

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
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New tactics for an Evo world

Postby MaxSteiner » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:35 pm

Ok, amongst the myriad of topics in a thread yesturday (probably quite rightly deleted) was some very sensible and right thinking stuff about how old methods of play just wont work in Evolution, due the the 'tweaking' of some rules and the removal of others.
I'm thinking it might be worth while to have a thread discussing what wont work, and what will work in this brave new 1 reactioned world.

I'm thinking the MI will need the most help at this stage (Which is scary because bugs won most of the games i played...), it seems the way they're played will have change immensly by the time the new game is out. Possibly jumping every turn would work, or perhaps an increased reliance on relients to increase the rate of fire. It could well be that the new method of creating platoons (Im assuming here since the book wont be out for a while) and the min/maxing thats bound to follow will help overcome some of the problems.
Flamers seen to have taken a nose dive in utility too.

Bugs seem somewhat less effected since all the need to do is take larger units, although of the specialied bugs have taken a hit, firefrys for instance, Im not to sure when the new reaction to shooting occurs, but it would seem to render the jumping ability somewhat moot.
Cliff mites become a stranger breed entirly, since as was mentioned no ones going to waste their one reaction per turn on them, and the new fire rules mean they're custom built for filling up firezones. The image of hundreds of cliffmites marching in front of a menacing thorny tanker springs to mind.
Assasins and infiltrator seem to become more useful for forcing reactions from players, since they have that essential mix of scariness and 'potential one turn killability'.
Tunneling seems a bit less useful these days, since the need to hide underground is somewhat reduced. Could still be useful as the brain bugs budget version of shield we all know and love, and could still be used to deliver that tanker to the building the dumb federation lackeys are standing on, but the days of all underground deployment seem to be gone.
Warrior bugs seem by far the most useful once again. With the dramatically reduced amount of fire going on the carrion bug upgrades seems to offer virtual immunity, a unit of 15 per MI unit and you'd seem to be well on the way to victory :D

Anyway those are off the top of my head, and I'd be interested to hear what other new tactics will replace the tried and tested plays of the past (Unless its someone insisting nothings gonna change again :D)
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Postby Hiromoon » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:10 pm

Yeah, in my honest opinion the MI have gotten the short end of the stick...

1 - You don't get your own weapons options untill they release a 'booster' for them...
2 - You don't get to bounce away on a retreat...
3 - One reaction means you're going to get really screwed by Bugs....
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Postby MaxSteiner » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:23 pm

Yeah that was my immediate thought...
Am I right in thinking that platoon structure is out of the window for SST?
That might mean the ability to field ubber broken Exo/Marauder/MI/Lami troops of doom...
Actually it seems as if its the cartoon series type MI that have taken the biggest hit (Although Exo's might be in trouble too), LAMI might come out of this the best...
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Postby Hiromoon » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:26 pm

*sighs quietly*

Well, let's just say when you look at 40k's unit selection, it seems awfully familiar.


Troop choice
Support choice
etc
etc
etc
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Postby MaxSteiner » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:34 pm

:? Hmmm... I suppose its easier for new players to get their heads around... or something...
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Postby Hiromoon » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:43 pm

Yeah, a little odd if you ask me... anyway, there's other things....effectively, the reduction down to one raction for the MI is effectively a death sentance. I mean, why do you go for any tactic listed as 'Attack' or 'Probe'?
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Postby MaxSteiner » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:49 pm

Hmmm.... I suppose fleet support becomes a bit more of a must have in this edition then?
Best start making use of mass drop pod deployment to I suppose, at least you can squeeze a bit more mobility out the lil doomed guys that way :D
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Postby Hiromoon » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:55 pm

I donno...it seems like it's worse than anything, especially reacting to fire...
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Postby Turtle » Tue Feb 13, 2007 3:44 pm

You guys are assuming that the game will stay mostly the same.

Frankly, the switch to the BFE rules set will require a major change in how units work, although units will retain much of their same purpose and strengths, things will change.

Thus most of this speculation won't be too useful if you only base it on what you know of the original unit's stats.

For one, no one knows for sure that there is no jump reaction anymore. We don't even have the basic unit stats, let alone the advanced rules for SST.

We don't know how they'll handle the whole +2/+2 cover issue with cap troopers in cover.

I suspect we'll see a big change to cap troopers to make them 4+/7+, jumping on reaction will be a special rule on the card.

You guys are also assuming the weapons stay the same.

Frankly, MI got too used to reactions being so overpowered. It was a huge force multiplyer to be able to shoot nearly an infinite amount on the enemy's turn, but only shoot once or twice on your own turn. It was pretty unfair and despite some of you saying that Bugs won more games, over here it was the MI that won hands down.

You're also assuming that the bug armies will remain the same, but they're also likely to change.

Too make up for how deadly the MI were, the bugs had to be artificially boosted so that the moment one of them got close enough to attack the MI in CC, they did a ton of damage. Now, with the whole action reaction issue balanced out, we may see a big rebalance of the bugs, or bug point values.

What you don't realize here is that while MI will first come out with basic units, so will the arachnids. Not to mention that people who already have armies can use them right away. So while MI get LAMI and Exos in the first release, Arachnids only get warriors and the tanker. That's a pretty fair match up. The lamis should come with a missile launcher and the Exos are just plain nasty. Should be pretty equal. Mongoose has shown with the BFE wave releases that they can balance out.

Flamers were a bit overpowered in how they operated, what you see as a complete nose dive in effectiveness is a rebalance to me. Once again, you're assuming nothing else changes so that the flamethrower is no longer a necessity but still a valid option.

The issue of cliff mites screening a thorny tanker is moot. Cliff mites don't block LOS to the tanker, so you can simply put the firezone well behind the cliff mites with the thorny in the middle. ALso, like BFE there's likely a rule where any of your explosive weapons can target the larger targets in a firezone and ignore the other squishies.

Assassins and infiltrators also lose a lot of effectiveness since one big change in BFE is that a unit that loses its leader simply loses a turn and then selects a new one.

Tunneling is not reduced in effectiveness, once again you're assuming MI weapons won't be as effective.

For one, it's now more easy for you to shoot bugs out of cover, since the cover rules are now on a per bug basis.

It's also likely we won't see the same upgrades for units now that the game has been rebalanced, so the carrion upgrade may go away now that there's no need to artificially boost the effectiveness of warriors.

So, all in all, it's nowhere near as bad as you think. And frankly, these are the guys that designed the game, they probably know of every single issue you are bringing up since they're playtesting it as we speak.
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Postby JoseDominguez » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:14 pm

Which they also did before the original was released :)
If we don't discuss the issues then maybe some will be missed?

It's going to mean a rethink from a lot of players who were in a rut and relied heavily on one tactic. Problem for me is I relied heavily on exploiting those ruts :)

New rules will hopefully give SST that feel it had when I first discovered it, only now, with pre-paints anyone can access it.

The only major problem I had with SST was finding new opponents. Shouldn't be so much of a problem now.
As long as the game has that same feel to it.

As for MI not being allowed to jump in reaction.... I think that's just players making a logical conclusion. If you can't carry a ready action, then you can't 'beat feet' on the bounce.

All just speculation though, and we are all just posing theories.

As for game balance..... I've mentioned before that our group got together and bought everything available to ensure no one player had an advantage due to money (we pretty much all want to win by our gameplay). What we found was that the same players won more often regardless of which army they played. Most groups have a dominating player or two, swap armies with them, see if the results are the same.

I look at it this way, I've been playing since the game started and our group have regular games, If I wanted to write a book on SST tactics and included all of the stuff you can do and the strategies you can employ to win, it would be a massive epic I could spend years on. If I wanted to write a piece on winning another futuristic wargame then my tactical advice could be summed up as 'play space marines' :)
Nothing in SST was broken, every comment to that end was quickly responded to by someone with an opposite view 'exos are too hard'/'exos are too expensive' 'bugs always win'/'how are you supposed to beat bugs?'
Etc....
Reduction to one reaction is a major change, it seems to affect the MI most, but then again..... neo dogs charging into a bug swarm to soak up reaction, cap troopers 8" from bugs and flame them...... they react..... flame them again.... they sit and fry :)
It's going to reduce those 'set piece' hopper attacks from readied reactions too.
Grenades are more effective, cap drops are now less suicidal etc...
I can see lots of new options, going to take a while to get my head around them :)
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Postby Hiromoon » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:21 pm

Turtle, you do know who you're talking to, right?
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Postby MaxSteiner » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:44 pm

I was rather amused by that as well Hiro :D

And Turtle one of the points about having hundreds of cliff mites in front of a tanker is that you could just attack with the cliff mites one after the other, with no fear of the player using their reaction because they're saving it for the tanker. Hell it doesnt actually need to do anything but look more threatening than the hordes of cliff mites!
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Postby CudaHP » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:45 pm

Turtle, seems to me by your statements, if they turn out to be accurate that you have indicated that those very things which sold me on SST, may have been stripped out of the game for the sake of "streamlining"/"balance".

If this is true I feel it is unfortunate, really unfortunate :!: :!: :!:

I rather liked much of the original game and how it played.

My personal opinion only, too much simplification for "balancing" purposes could provide the death knell for SST as far as I am concerned. Other companies have gone this way and now their games seem more suitable for the twelve and under crowd.

I will wait and see, when the rulebook comes out. Until I can actually read and digest the Evo rules Mongoose will not be selling me any more figures.

The more conjecture and "insider" information I hear, the less I like the sound of the whole situation.

Pre-painted figures may be fine, but the way the game flowed with reaction abilities was what sold me on SST.

I agree with Hiro, seems from what I have heard that any tactical edge the MI had "may" have been pretty much emasculated in the new "better"? rule set.

Perhaps by years end the SST:Evo rulebook will be out, only then will I personally worry or truly consider buying into the game.

Between now and whenever FoW will be receiving my $600.00 per month hobby budget.

I have given all my current SST products to a friend about $3,000 USD and all of my GW collection as well over $20,000 USD collected over the last 20 plus years.

Have to be honest BF:Evo does not really float my own personal boat. None of the armies really interests me.

I rid myself of all my BF:ACTA as well for various reasonable issues.

I now own not one item of Mongoose products nor any GW products.

I will continue on my solitary way.

Additional reasons are in the nearest city of 500,00 population (16 miles distant) there is a total of 150 square feet of store space devoted to Warmachine, SST and 40K.

Seems miniature wargaming is being mismanaged to death here in California.

No wonder GW's sales have dropped to less than ten percent of their totals of five or six years ago.

This is not a flame or attack on anyone but if current forum policy holds true I expect this post to disappear within the next 48 hours, just like the last four general statements I have posted. :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Postby Hiromoon » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:07 pm

Well, the rulebook will be out the second month (hopefully) of SST:Ev's release.
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Turtle Logic

Postby Proteus454 » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:13 pm

Actually, contrary to the nay-sayers, Turtle may have the right of it.

Remember, folks, that the way Battlefield plays is predicated upon modern - or upgradedly, within reach of modern - infantry tactics, and modern infantry equipment.

While the base, base ruleset will remain the same, there's no doubt in my mind that if any Battlefield units came equipped with power armour, jump jets and man-machine integration that makes the Land Warrior look like a flashlight ducttaped to a bayonet rig, they would have a few special rules reflecting that.

Every Trooper of the Mobile Infantry, remember, is expected to excel. To know how to use his or her armoured suit to the fullest extent, to use any weapon that may fall into their hands, and to be On The Bounce. Not to sell modern troops short, not at all, but we're looking at some serious hardcore motherlovers.

Assuming anything even remotely like correlation between SST and BF:E point values, note the cost of a squad of five CAP Troopers vis-a-vis a whole fireteam or more of PLA or USMC infantry.

If a modern assault rifle plugged into a Land Warrior suite has just one D6 and a range of 24", I imagine the Morita will be souped up accordingly. I'm quite confident that the Mongeese have the implications for the MI all worked out - or else in the process of being worked out, anyhoo.
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Postby Proteus454 » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:13 pm

Hiromoon wrote:Well, the rulebook will be out the second month (hopefully) of SST:Ev's release.
I'll be picking that bad boy up.
I'm here to kick bubblegum and chew...wait, no, that's not it.

Contrary to popular belief, War is often the answer.
For example, "What does 'W', 'A', and 'R', spell?" Or, "Was the Vietnam conflict more like a war or a 3-ring circus?"
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Postby MongooseMatt » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:18 pm

MaxSteiner wrote:
And Turtle one of the points about having hundreds of cliff mites in front of a tanker is that you could just attack with the cliff mites one after the other, with no fear of the player using their reaction because they're saving it for the tanker. Hell it doesnt actually need to do anything but look more threatening than the hordes of cliff mites!
Why use a reaction? The Tanker cannot benefit from cover through the Cliff mItes (or anything else, for that matter), and most weapons capable of hurting it can ignore smaller things in the Fire Zone. . .
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Postby MongooseMatt » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:18 pm

CudaHP wrote:[
I have given all my current SST products to a friend about $3,000 USD and all of my GW collection as well over $20,000 USD collected over the last 20 plus years.
I'll be your friend!
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Postby Hiromoon » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:25 pm

Proteus, the exosuits, CapTroopers, and Pathfinders don't even get the neat doo-dads that make the Landwarrior stuff awsome....

At this point, you're basically going to have to start from Square 1 when it comes to SST:Ev because of the rules changes. Thankfully you'll get an easy to read document in each boxed set that'll let you get into the game.
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Postby MongooseMatt » Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:27 pm

Hiromoon wrote:Proteus, the exosuits, CapTroopers, and Pathfinders don't even get the neat doo-dads that make the Landwarrior stuff awsome....
Just before anyone gets worried, no one outside Mongoose knows what doo-dads (technical term) any SST unit wil be getting. . .
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