Why no grenades?

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Sgt. Brassones
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Why no grenades?

Postby Sgt. Brassones » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:29 am

Offensive and defensive, flash-bang, white phosphorous, smoke. Why are there no options on the unit cards for grenades? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't each U.S. Marine issued two frag grenades as standard?
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Postby Hiromoon » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:32 am

In 2011, USMC High Command decided the US Marines were having too much fun with grenades...
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Postby Turtle » Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:58 am

They're probably an advanced option?

That or they'll be special options for other units.

There's also the grenade launcher.

And there's advanced rules for smoke in the full rulebook.
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Postby Mr Evil » Sun Feb 04, 2007 10:25 am

yeah i recon grenades will be in advance rules or s&p article, the 2 page rule sheet isnt realy the place to have such info.

i hope tournys stick to basic rules to keep games fast and speedy.
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Postby boomgoose » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:55 pm

Actually, I always felt throwing, deviating and then finally allocating grenades really slowed down game play in 40K and such. If MG left 'em out, I'm cool w/ that.
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Postby Iain McGhee » Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:06 pm

I'm not certain about the rules in EVO, but in the SST rules that form their basis standard grenades used direct fire rules and just rolled to score hits like any other weapon. Smoke grenades just gave a chance to "dodge" fire. Some special grenades could use indirect fire but the scatter rules made them as much as a danger to your side as the enemy !
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Postby weasel_fierce » Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:38 pm

they're propably just factored into the regular combat and assault rules.
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Postby Mr Evil » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:56 pm

also in SST the effect of grenades and lack of range made them sorta redundant most of the time, as they just didnt have enough punch to make them worth the action spent deploying them.

also the usmc do have one man per squad with a GL so there not totaly left out.
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Postby Megatron » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:57 pm

they probably account for the 2Xd6 CC score of most units.
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Postby weasel_fierce » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:57 pm

more to the point, in modern combat, how much time do soldiers spend chucking grenades, compared to spending the same time making several reasonably aimed shots ?

There's also the issue of range. If a rifle can only shoot 24 inches , throwing range would either be miserably short, or seem strangely long.
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Postby Megatron » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:59 pm

weasel_fierce wrote: There's also the issue of range. If a rifle can only shoot 24 inches , throwing range would either be miserably short, or seem strangely long.
and that's a rifle with really advanced targeting
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Postby Sgt. Brassones » Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:53 am

weasel_fierce wrote:more to the point, in modern combat, how much time do soldiers spend chucking grenades, compared to spending the same time making several reasonably aimed shots ?

There's also the issue of range. If a rifle can only shoot 24 inches , throwing range would either be miserably short, or seem strangely long.
I was thinking more along the lines of urban combat. If you watch footage of Falluja for instance, you'll see the Marines lobbing several grenades into a house before entering. In one instance the Marines had several insurgents cornered in a courtyard that wouldn't surrender. Instead of risking their lives assualting the courtyard they just tossed grenades over the wall.
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Postby Rabidchild » Mon Feb 05, 2007 1:08 am

The grenade issue comes up in many systems. There are two primary reasons not to implement them: 1) They are so good that you end up with squads running around doing nothing but lobbing grenades. 2) There are invariably deviation rules that slow the game to a crawl.

That being said, what are the reasons to use grenades in a game? What are the reasons to put anything in a game? To give tactical options within the framework of the game. So let's look at the options that grenades could give and stay away from the above 2 reasons not to use them.

The primary use of grenades is against located enemies that cannot be seen so what about letting them be used without LOS? This gives an option not available yet in the game. In keeping with the framework of the game (modern combat) let's limit how many can throw. This not only is in keeping with fire-team tactics of having your mates cover you, but would also stop people from running around with 10 soldiers grenade-spamming. As far as range goes 4" seems reasonable considering the blast radius of the weapon. This may not be a realistic simulation of real world grenade range but doesn't pretend to be. It's for the game, if you need a real world reason for it, think of it as the effective range rather than maximum range.

Fragmentation Grenade
Range: 4" Damage D6
As part of a shoot action two models may opt to throw grenades instead of firing their weapon. Fragmentation Grenades will roll extra damage dice (but only 1D6 with no penalty to armor save) against each model within 1" of the center of the first model its damage die is allocated to. As an exception to the shooting rules neither the first model allocated a damage die, nor the models within 1" of it need to be in Line of Sight. It may only be used once per turn and never as a reaction.


As an aside, I do realize that a fire team with only two members left could opt to both throw grenades and so break with the tactic of having a mate cover your back. But really, if you're down to two soldiers you might be desperate enough to both lob some grenades. Also I realize that a squad could be split into fire teams to multiply the grenades thrown. I don't think that would be much of a problem as splitting fire teams comes with its own drawbacks, but if it becomes a problem it's easy enough to say that only one model may throw a grenade as part of a shoot action.

Thoughts? Comments?
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Postby Sgt. Brassones » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:28 am

Rabidchild wrote:The grenade issue comes up in many systems. There are two primary reasons not to implement them: 1) They are so good that you end up with squads running around doing nothing but lobbing grenades. 2) There are invariably deviation rules that slow the game to a crawl.

That being said, what are the reasons to use grenades in a game? What are the reasons to put anything in a game? To give tactical options within the framework of the game. So let's look at the options that grenades could give and stay away from the above 2 reasons not to use them.

The primary use of grenades is against located enemies that cannot be seen so what about letting them be used without LOS? This gives an option not available yet in the game. In keeping with the framework of the game (modern combat) let's limit how many can throw. This not only is in keeping with fire-team tactics of having your mates cover you, but would also stop people from running around with 10 soldiers grenade-spamming. As far as range goes 4" seems reasonable considering the blast radius of the weapon. This may not be a realistic simulation of real world grenade range but doesn't pretend to be. It's for the game, if you need a real world reason for it, think of it as the effective range rather than maximum range.

Fragmentation Grenade
Range: 4" Damage D6
As part of a shoot action two models may opt to throw grenades instead of firing their weapon. Fragmentation Grenades will roll extra damage dice (but only 1D6 with no penalty to armor save) against each model within 1" of the center of the first model its damage die is allocated to. As an exception to the shooting rules neither the first model allocated a damage die, nor the models within 1" of it need to be in Line of Sight. It may only be used once per turn and never as a reaction.


As an aside, I do realize that a fire team with only two members left could opt to both throw grenades and so break with the tactic of having a mate cover your back. But really, if you're down to two soldiers you might be desperate enough to both lob some grenades. Also I realize that a squad could be split into fire teams to multiply the grenades thrown. I don't think that would be much of a problem as splitting fire teams comes with its own drawbacks, but if it becomes a problem it's easy enough to say that only one model may throw a grenade as part of a shoot action.

Thoughts? Comments?
I disagree with reason 2 not to implement them. Using a GW-style deviation die takes only seconds to resolve.

Other than that you make good points. The only thing I would change is use D6+2 if thrown into an enclosed space.
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Postby Capt. Griffin » Mon Feb 05, 2007 5:36 am

I was kinda hoping that grenades were included in that short range assault value. Less mess, less figuring and quicker play, also no arguments over who has access to what types of grenades. Unless of course there are some major developments in grenades in the next few years but that's not very likely.
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Postby MongooseMatt » Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:09 am

Hi there,

Grenades are indeed included in the CC value of units (you will notice that, if you manage to get that close, your infantry can be very effective) and they are also integrated into the rules of assaulting structures in the advanced rulebook.
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