Using BFE rules with non-mongoose minis.

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
Armchair_Marine
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Using BFE rules with non-mongoose minis.

Postby Armchair_Marine » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:31 pm

Just wanted to know how mongoose feels about this? Using BF EVO rules but using nothing but minis from other companies. The reason I ask is not only because I know there may be better looking modern minis out there, but also because Games Workshop is pretty anal about their rules being used with non-GW minis(especially when done out in public). I think they have a whole list of copyright/legal rules about it. Does mongoose feel the same as GW?
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Postby Rob_A » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:34 pm

I intend to do something similar, I will be using half and half so that there is less 'faceless horde' about it.
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Postby Armchair_Marine » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:37 pm

Yes, but would it 'hurt' mongooses's 'feelings' in anyway?
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Postby Rob_A » Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:49 pm

Im not sure. I mean, they probably want to sell their minis, but I think they can face that they wont always. :)
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Postby Captain_Nemo » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:47 am

I am running a BFE tournament in June at Diecon 7

I do not know if I am supposed to be stringently enforcing MGP minis only or not. Frankly as long as you own the rulebook and show up with a copy you can use cardboard counters, TAG, Dadi&Piombo, Chiltern, Mofo, corgi, whatever providing they are wysiwyg.

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Postby Armchair_Marine » Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:37 am

Hmm, maybe it would be bad if, like GW, mongoose had their own chain of stores and gamerooms.
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Postby CudaHP » Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:23 am

GW nor any game company has any legal say as to what figures game players use with their rules set -- unless it is in a GW Store or GW Sponsered tournament.

If any GW employee were to say anything stupid to most players I am acquainted with in that regard in apublic venue they would laughed out of the game area and possibly ordered to leave the store.

Mongoose has never struck me as having that sort of a Gestapo mentality.

I can understand Mongoose Infantry being required to use official figures in demos (If available, sic most air assets as yet) but not necessarily the players.
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Postby Turtle » Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:38 am

I'm perfectly fine with Mongoose restricting their official tournaments and demos to their figures only. After all, they're paying to support the tournament/demo, and the way they make money is through miniature sales.

That said, I also would have no problem at all playing with or against an army using suitable proxy figures from another 28mm modern line. They just have to look the part.

The key here is that we get as many people playing the rules as possible. And when people see that others are playing, and try the rules, no doubt that some who try will like and want to buy into the game. Now, some may not like the mongoose figures and go with other moderns, and some will embrace the prepaints.

Probably the best thing about these prepainted games is that someone can walk into a store, see some guys playing, try a demo or watch. Then immediately buy an army and put that army on the table to play. The time to table is instant, and they can begin playing with their own armies with the very people who got them into the game.

That's been a problem with the miniature hobby, and while it's a great hobby to paint, the gaming side has suffered.
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Postby weasel_fierce » Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:09 am

Mongoose will likely make far more profit from their mini's than from selling the rulebook.

So if you wish to support the 'goose, buy the mini's. Or buy a LOT of books :)

Personally, Im not interested in figures of this scale, so I'll be going with 15mm if I go with it. My "mongoose loyalty money' goes to Runequest, which I am buying pretty much as it comes out (at least as quick as I can keep up)
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Postby mthomason » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:22 am

My (totally unofficial) take on this:

If you've legally obtained the rules, you can do whatever you want.

To the best of my knowledge, the only legal method to obtain stats is to buy that unit, swipe a spare unit card off someone else who has, or use a unit whose rules have been published in S&P.

In the wargaming industry, most rule books are brought out as a support product to help sell the miniatures, not the other way around, sometimes with the rulebook being produced at a loss (at least in the beginning) - a very similar model to new games consoles, where the manufacturer loses money on console production but makes it back through licencing games.

So if you'd like to see BF Evo go down the toilet, buy the rulebook and not the minis. There's nothing forcing you to buy the minis, it's simply down to your conscience at the end of the day. My own conscience tells me its okay to use about three-quarters official minis and a quarter of other bits and pieces to personalise my army - most likely I'll not have the time to paint anything more than one non-Mongoose figure for every ten official BF Evo ones, though.

Then again, my conscience was absolutely fine with buying an XBox 360 to use as a Media Center Extender. I'm confident MS can absorb the loss. I'm not so confident that any miniatures company (yes, even you-know-who) can.

This is my personal opinion, and I'm not getting paid to say this - oh, and from the retailer POV: I don't care which minis you buy, I make money off all of them ;)
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Postby Mr Evil » Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:48 am

ok not sure how to go about this.

the big warning is scale creep, and WYSIWYG.

while the stat cards are designed to represent the units mongoose produce, other manufactures at present dont adhere to this.

i have a few 1:64 scale M1A1 tanks and troops, no pics yet sorry, and to be honest there fine for size and looks, but their not Mongoose, now i could use them as a american liberation peoples army(ALPA), and use the US rules for them, and repaint them so their obvously a not mongoose so people would not presume they are not mongoose figs, and im sure as i didnt plagerise or ilegaly copy anything i could possably use them at a tourney with mongoose permition, but i would have to have a spare force to use just incase it went against the game ethics or PR.

the mongoose figs are so nicly painted i would not wish to repaint them, but the stuff i got although the vehicles are better painted the troops dont compare, so painting them up as a american rebel force would be good fun, and i think it would be great in a tourney as long as mongoose agreed to their use.

its about personal choice i think, but again scale creep and wysiwyg is also as important.

my russian figs and tanks for example at 1:48 scale and dwarf the mongoose stuff, its like russia has been on growth steroids for 3 generations lol.

just my views any way
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Postby DM » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:39 pm

There's nothing forcing you to buy the minis, it's simply down to your conscience at the end of the day.
So its an issue of conscience is it? Mongoose chose to produce a set of rules that I quite like. They chose to produce figures in a style that I particularly don't like and a scale that I won't touch for cost, space and compatability issues. If Mongoose or any other company was in a situation where merely selling rules placed them at a significant commercial risk then they are probably in the wrong business. At the very least they shouldn't be producing rules. Happily this is almost certainly not the case for Mongoose since they are happy to produce WW2 naval rules for which they produce no models whatsoever.

To try and induce guilt in those who choose to use different figures is, IMHO, flying in the face of reality
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Postby Mr Evil » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:19 pm

mongoose track record

Rules : fantastic

Public relations :awsome.

Figures : so so

Release dates : mish mash

Typos : not as many as make !! but not the best.

passion : !! pretty high id say. (i mean for product not in bedroom of course)
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Postby captainsmirk » Mon Jan 22, 2007 1:22 pm

Mr Evil wrote:passion : !! pretty high id say. (i mean for product not in bedroom of course)
Well you never know, though probably best not to discuss that at all...
:oops:

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Postby weasel_fierce » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:19 pm

Conscience ? Bullhockey

We live in a free market economy. If a company wants you to buy a product, its up to them to make a product you will want to buy.

Since tastes differ, not everyone will buy everything.

Thats like saying that if you like Mongoose, you must buy the Paranoia and the Conan books, even if you dont want to play either.
After all, they make them, and must have paid a decent amount of money for the licenses.
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Postby Mr Evil » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:29 pm

weasel_fierce wrote:Conscience ? Bullhockey

We live in a free market economy. If a company wants you to buy a product, its up to them to make a product you will want to buy.

Since tastes differ, not everyone will buy everything.

Thats like saying that if you like Mongoose, you must buy the Paranoia and the Conan books, even if you dont want to play either.
After all, they make them, and must have paid a decent amount of money for the licenses.
i think LBH would disagree there, he buys everything mongosse produce !!! hes like posesed !!
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Postby lastbesthope » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:30 pm

Not everything.

I get the SF, Tooty gets the fantasy and Low Roller buys the minis.

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Postby mthomason » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:37 pm

DM wrote: So its an issue of conscience is it?
For me it is. I neither expect nor was I intending to say it should be for everyone, and apologize if that is how it sounded. I'm used to saying how I feel on message boards, and not telling others how they should, so let me emphasise that is how I'd like to be read ;)

If development was stopped on a game I liked, and I realised I'd been spending my money on alternatives from another company, then yes - I'd feel somewhat guilty about it (not to mention disappointed, although you can't blame a company for not developing rules for a game if it doesn't sell very well - likewise you can't blame a customer for choosing something that they preferred over it).

If I hadn't liked the game, I wouldn't care less. If the miniatures aren't your thing, then by all means nobody is forcing you to buy them :)

So yes, for me where I spend my money is somewhat a matter of conscience, and I make no apologies for my feeling that way.

It's somewhat the same argument for which store people choose to spend their money in. Some people have a local game store, and would rather spend a little more money there than buying things cheaper online, as they want that store to stay open and be there when they need to nip in and grab a blister pack. You know what? I respect that decision, despite the fact that it means less business for me personally. Some people couldn't care less about bricks and mortar stores and just want to save money. Nobody is "right", and nobody is "wrong", it's a matter of opinions, personal preferences, and personal circumstances - and it's the same in this.

So, I've shared my feelings, and rather than be told how wrong it is for me to do so I'd much rather listen to how other people feel.
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Postby Mr Evil » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:37 pm

lol

:lol:

sorry if i woke you ;)
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Postby weasel_fierce » Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:39 pm

of course you can also view it like this.

Scenario 1: I buy the book. I introduce my friends to it. Likely 1 or 2 will also buy the book ,and we'll play with my 15mm stuff or whatnot. 2-3 book sales for mongoose.

Scenario 2: I have a crisis of conscience. I dont buy the book because its bad for mongoose to use different mini's. I teach my friends to play a different game, which 1 or 2 of them will buy. No book sales for mongoose.

3 people buying every mini they put out makes mongoose more money than 3 people buying a rulebook, but 3 people buying a rulebook /and starting to tell people that this game is cool/ makes more money for mongoose than those 3 people not buying it, and telling people to use Stargrunt II for moderns instead.
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