World War 2 Evolution

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
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Eisho
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Postby Eisho » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:45 pm

Great news.

I'd like to see the Pacific war covered as well. Adding the Japanese army seems like a natural enough progression if you've already got Brits, Americans and Russians.

Cheers,

Eisho
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Postby tneva82 » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:24 pm

One thought. BF:Evo and SST:Evo works on concept of hitting is not that much of problem, penetrating armour is. In WW2 hitting could very much be a problem. Especially on the move. How would this be represented? (much the same thing as with ACTA->Victory at Sea).

Since basic rules are probably same it would probably have to be some sort of unit special rule or something.

Just wondering.
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Postby soulman » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:03 pm

Once you see the rules for BF EVO tank rules, it will all full into place, or if you only have the odd tank on the table you could have a little d6 table for damage effect
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Postby soulman » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:14 pm

The only little things i would add to the WW2 side of things is about spreading the squad futher apart then the 6" from the leader..
What way a couple of guys can spilt to check out a barn etc, before the squad moves up, maybe a test for this, to see if the squad is happy about this.

Squad morale, something about a roll to hold postion under fire or fall back. same with a test when a tank comes at you, or you are out numbered.

Add a " Training " skill based on Exp of troops, or a "Command" stat

This would drop with more the 1/2 new troops added to squad, or a +1 for vets...
Something like special actions maybe...?

" when charged " - roll to hold postion
" tanks within 10" - roll as above
" 1/2 squad down " - roll to ?

My ideas swimming in my head....
Alan
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Kristovich
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Postby Kristovich » Tue Dec 05, 2006 6:36 pm

Am I the only one who even know that Swedes took part in the Finnish Winter War? Not sure about the Continuation War though.

Anyhow, I'd say do something new. Like the Finnish Winter War, the Pacific or perhaps Africa.

Anything would be cool though :D
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Postby Col_stone » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:13 pm

Kristovich wrote:Am I the only one who even know that Swedes took part in the Finnish Winter War? Not sure about the Continuation War though.
Took part and took part, we sent some supplies, (Food medicine clothes Rifles and ammo, ) and some 8000 volunteers went there (40 were killed and 170 injured), we also provided a safe place for finnish children

I have heard of a group (12) of pilots who got to take their aircrafts on vacation aswell, they spent it in finland as mercenaries;)
Not so much, but still
well at least that's more than the 200 or so volunteers that went south to join germany..

The russians managed to bomb a barn in sweden in 1940 due to some navigational hiccup too, but they payed for it so it was ok :roll:


:!: Stockholm was bombed in 1944 aswell by what was assumed to be soviets that got lost, i personally canno understand how you can cross a small sea without realising you've taken a wrong turn,, my money is on the germans trying to coax us into "helping" against the soviets :!:

(remember, i'm just an amateur in these things, i'm sure somethings off)
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Jeff Cope
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Postby Jeff Cope » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:54 pm

Just so we're clear....

Will Mongoose be producing prepainted minis for WWII:Evo, or is this a project more along the lines of Victory at Sea where no minis are being made?

I'm hoping its the former. If its prepainted minis, I'm all in. If it's no minis or have to paint minis, I'm all out.

So, what are we looking at here?

Jeff
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Feedback on "command " special actions "

Postby soulman » Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:02 pm

Hi all, can people let me know what they think about special actions, like in ACTA, for squads..?

Using command skill, this can be a dice roll to get the best from you squad, and would show training and combat time in field.
Test for
Holding against the enemy
tanks close by
Being suppressed

Special actions like
" charge " rush to enemy
"Rapid fire men " reroll missed attacks
" To me " regroup


I like its a good idea and throws the unknown onto the battlefield
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Soulmage
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Postby Soulmage » Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:03 am

BF:Evo
SST:Evo
Age of Conan:(Evo?)
VaS
WWII:Evo

Really. . . who needs ANY other company!!
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Postby weasel_fierce » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:11 am

Good to see some discussion, and thanks for the correction on the Finnish word :)

I'd definately make things open for a range of troop levels. In every army, you find people that ran away immediately, and people that fought to the bitter end. Sometimes, they are the same people in different units :)

The evolution system unfortunately has one glaring flaw. No way to represent troop quality, and no way to represent morale outside of break points.

The ideas I threw in there, was just basic ideas for how to make the squads more characterfull, since thats the kind of stuff that helps sell a game. Grognards might be happy with Rapid Fire but kids these days want something shiny :)


As far as focusing on something new, I'd be ecstatic if the book focused on the east front. Soviets versus a whole pile of axis troops. Germans, finn's, romanians, italians, spanish (blue division), hungarians, scandinavian SS volunteers etc etc etc.

I realize that odds are we'll get yet more US paratroops fighting German paratroops in Normandy :(
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Postby weasel_fierce » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:12 am

TabletopWarrior wrote: I think Mongoose will have to make some interesting design decisions for BF:WWII. But so far, they have proven themselves to understand they are GAME publishers.

In the meantime, I'll be tinkering with the system so I can use my WWII models! And of course playing my beloved Marines in BF:Evo just as soon as I can.

TW
I think you are spot on, and I think we've also struck on some inherent limitations of the evolution "engine". It'll be interesting to see what they come up with :)
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Postby Kristovich » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:03 am

I'm in for those morale things, otherwise we'd have Osttruppen who stay and fight where the Waffen-SS runs away, or US replacements who stay where the Rangers turn tail and run.

I actually have an idea for this on paper, which goes along the lines of:

"Training level: How well-trained a unit is. Affects how good they are at hitting the enemy, how good they are at finding cover and so on.

Morale level: It is fully possible for a un-trained unit to be fanatic and will fight on to the bitter end, yet more often than not low Training means low Morale."

Just an idea.
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Postby Ben2 » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:21 am

Well in BF:Evo morale is handled through special rules, with units ignoring their first suppression result or ignoring suppression entirely. Note that in SST Evo MI will be affected by suppression and hence are subject to normal psychology.
To represent Green or demoralised troops it is easy enough to have a special rule which says they suffer suppression the first time they take fire (ie green troops) or are suppressed for 1 or 2 less dice than normal (demoralised troops) or specify that the unit may only react to incoming fire by moving towards cover (this allows them to still react to enemy moving into 10" by firing back).
There are lots of possibilities to explore. One I have created is Poor Morale - the unit suffers suppression if it receives dice equal to the number of models in the unit -1. The unit, if close assaulted by a tank, may only react by moving away from the tank. If it cannot react its first action must be to move away from the tank.

This means poor morale troops are easier to pin down and can be tank shocked. But there are many possibilities.
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Postby Mr Evil » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:24 am

OK here is my sugestion, Old bear

from a conversation with you guys a while back im aware you have good relations with the guys at battle front, i would strongly suggest you get those guys in on the play testing as they ahve alot and i mean a lot of background knowledge on WW" history and unit markings, and could give you guys some real strong pointers on what forces are the most popular in ww2 for players to use ;)

also maybe good to do what they did nd plit the war in to 3 parts, early / mid and late. start with mid war as thats the one with all the familier wargear, them move on to late war later as a seperate game, and then if call is there go for early war.

also maybe good to use unit organisations simmilir to that of Battlefront (flames of war) but with added detail and customisations, this would allow FOW players to recreat there platoons in 25-28mm scale to recreat small skirmishes that FOW cant handle.

Any way good luck and if its good il get it, just dont forget the russians ;)
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Postby Mr Evil » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:30 am

my idea was to give units a skill level.

skil level is equal to how far apart the soildier can operate apart (coherancy) and there fire zone they effect.

for example

british troops could be skill level 8 whilst pla would be 4

so british coherancy would be upto 8" between figs whilst PLA would have to stay within 4" of each other, the fire zone the british could produce would be 8" from center point so could hit every pla mamber possable, this would represnt better cordinated attacks compared to the PLA who would have a 4" fire zone and probably hit 2-4 members of the british squad, representing most of the shots going at the same few men they can see.

this i feel would represent training level very well.
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Postby tneva82 » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:52 am

Kristovich wrote:Am I the only one who even know that Swedes took part in the Finnish Winter War? Not sure about the Continuation War though.
Actually no. I know that too. They didn't play particulary war-winning part though but every little bit helps! :wink:

Then again can't remember exact details now but maybe war just ended too soon for you to give us more of a hand.

Don't recall anything about continuation war though. But since Sweden was IIRC neutral during the war I doubt they would have been eager to help Finland to invade SU alongside with German. Helping us defend against invasion is one thing. Helping US to invade other country quite another.
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Postby weasel_fierce » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:02 am

The swedes mostly ended up outside the heavy combat zones, mostly because communication wasnt too easy.

There were a handfull of danish volunteers but barely more than a platoon I think. We mostly sent medical stuff
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Postby Secesh » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:00 pm

im aware you have good relations with the guys at battle front, i would strongly suggest you get those guys in on the play testing
:lol: I'd love to be a fly on the wall for that conversation. :lol:
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Postby xeoran » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:35 pm

Secesh wrote:There is a void of any in game stores though, at least down here. They'll be the only 28mm WWII pre-painted ruleset on the market so they should stick with what people want judging by what sells in other scales and games - late war Germans.
The best selling units are:
Late War Germans
British Paratroops
US Infantry
Afrika Korps
Soviets
8th Army
US Marines
Japanese Infantry

That said manufacotrers like Bolt Action have done extremely well out of selling niche units and in fact I perfer those. I seriously doubt that Mongoose can do better Late War Germans than Artizan but I'd be in the market for Winter War (Jaegers! Jaegers!) which is totally uncovered, Burma which is nearly uncovered (everyone does Germans but only TAG does Brits and nobody does Chinese), the Italian campaign (though Bolt Action is moving into that).

I'd also be chuffed to see Jedbughs, Detatchment 101, Force 136, Alamo Scouts etc.
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Postby soulman » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:03 pm

I`m up for a morale system too, and i said before, somekind of special action test, based on the units training and leader, you may have a rookie unit, but a leader with combat Experence, so the low command score would get a +1 because of the squads Lt.

A test can be for having a test within reaction range, or when a unit charges you ( 2xmove actions ), a test to stand your ground or run.
Actions to dig in or " rapid fire on my command lads ".

If a squad had to test when down to 1/2 strength, if you look at a DD landing, as the guys run up the beach, they can under Hy fire, some was killed, other suppressed, and side should make a roll to hold they ground or retreat back into the see, be great to see your flanks full apart and a little rookie green squad hold the battlelines together.

Somethink like special actions in ACTAS maybe.
The glue that holds the squad together.
ALSO
Distance for squad members, 12" as it was a little less controlled then, and special actions for a squad can only be done with a leader in command ( good or bad he may be ).
Great for calling in airstrikes or regrouping troops

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