Babylon 5's Mine Launcher

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
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Voronesh
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Postby Voronesh » Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:31 pm

Streib ship.........my memory eludes me, can someone give me a pointer, as to when that is on screen......

And yes some boresighted weapons arent really boresighted on screen.....
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Postby captainsmirk » Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:36 pm

All Alone in then Night, Season 2. Sheridan is kidnapped by the Streib.

This is the best pic I could find at the mo:

Image

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Postby Voronesh » Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:37 pm

thx. alot. gonna watch it right now :D

EDIT:
OK i watched it right now. Ok just the important parts, but the Omega actually isnt firing at an angle. The shot just before that has the turret firing at boresight. But yes there are more cases of boresight weaponry firing at crazy angles.

And looking at the Streib ship it gave me more conviction of EA being way too fast on the tech. there are so many old races out there, that have vastly superior tech. When functions follow form instead of EA style 'form follows function' the race has a huge tech advantage.
Something the Narn tried to emulate with ships like the G'Quan.
So i am miffed by the fact that the youngest of the space races actually manages to overtake everyone else. Even the Drakh are outclassed by Crusade era EA.
"We are out of energy mines sir!"
"What? When did logistics stop supplying us?"
"2nd edition, sir."


Don't mind me, im just playing Devil's Advocate of the Shuuka.
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Postby Ripple » Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:42 pm

yup,

something goes wrong in the heads of many game designers, and all of a sudden he who looks most like me must be the strongest and the best. Sad really, but was also hoping we would see at least one more race that actually had turrets and stuff instead most are featureless smooth hulls. Look at the abbai, quad arrays but no visible weapons. Blah. The Victory I sort of understand as that was an ISA project so lots of the 'middle races' helping out.

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Postby Target » Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:32 pm

Voronesh wrote:Streib ship.........my memory eludes me, can someone give me a pointer, as to when that is on screen......
They looked like evil vree i think
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Postby captainsmirk » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:05 pm

Its not that it fired at an angle but it raked across the target perpendicular to the Agamemnon's course, therefore it must have some movement as the obviously don't turn the ship just to achieve that.

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Postby Voronesh » Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:27 pm

Well the Omega does have a beam turret actually.

As opposed to ships like the Lakara that does not have a turret but a front arced beam.

Yes it is sad that so many races look more advanced than EA ships, even Crusade era ones. Yet EA is far more advanced than they are.
"We are out of energy mines sir!"
"What? When did logistics stop supplying us?"
"2nd edition, sir."


Don't mind me, im just playing Devil's Advocate of the Shuuka.
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Postby captainsmirk » Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:19 pm

Well if the G'Quan is anything to go by you don't actually need a turret to have a wide fire arc, even when you apparently have long linear barrel-like tubes behind the weapon mounts (which are of course unnecessary for a laser weapon...) :D

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Lord David the Denied
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Postby Lord David the Denied » Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:36 pm

Apparently most lasers in B5 have such barrels. The probes on the bow of the Primus and Sharlin are supposed to be the laser mounts, I seem to recall...
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Postby emperorpenguin » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:08 pm

Lord David the Denied wrote:Apparently most lasers in B5 have such barrels. The probes on the bow of the Primus and Sharlin are supposed to be the laser mounts, I seem to recall...
the probes in the wings of the Primus are the lasers.

and yes according to the Primus ship plans, the twin arrays are labelled as ion cannons

I just wish the term ion cannon appeared in the rules!
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Postby Lord David the Denied » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:11 pm

Wings is it? I knew it was one or the other...

Now, it'd be nice if the Primus had these ion cannons (or plasma accelerators as various fluff sites called them) instead of twin arrays. It'd have some real punch then. As it is it's only capable of really hurting a target with its lasers, and as I've seen, it's not enough to justify its reputation.
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Postby TrueCentauri » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:24 pm

There is an episode in season 5 in which Dr Franklin explains that the ion cannon is an exclusive Centauri weapon - no other race uses it. And the Centauri raids are carried out by vorchans (or variants). Soo.. Why did they miss it?
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Postby Voronesh » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:25 pm

I dont know i consider the Primus to be a very fine ship.

6AD of battle lasers, generally nets more direct damage than a Tinashi, while you only lose out a little on the crits. And that is compared against the premiere battle lvl ship......

Yes the secondaries are worse, but then it gets 2 fighter flights.

Giving it an extra weapon system would push it beyond battle......
"We are out of energy mines sir!"
"What? When did logistics stop supplying us?"
"2nd edition, sir."


Don't mind me, im just playing Devil's Advocate of the Shuuka.
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Postby Slightly Norse John » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:27 pm

There was a fan attempt, EP I think you contributed to that, I have a vague memory of being involved myself, to rewrite the Centauri fleet list with ion cannons instead of battle lasers.
The thread title is 'House rules for Beam-less Centauri', I searched and found it but- how d'you post one of those things anyway?
Replacing the twin arrays would be interesting; RBax gives stats of range 24, AP for an ion cannon in First to Fall.
I've always found Twin Arrays to be basically weapons of opportunity in the offensive role, and pretty shabby in the defensive. They're not something you really bust a gut trying to get into range with, are they? Replacing them with Ion Cannon would give the Centauri a secondary of genuine tactical value, slightly outranging even the Minbari. I'd enjoy that, but the howls of protest from all over the boards might be a bit too much.
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Postby Lord David the Denied » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:30 pm

I didn't say an extra weapon. I said swap the twin arrays for plasma accelerators. Maybe only the forward one should be upgraded so it still has defensive guns to the sides and rear. Or perhaps up the front guns to a heavy array.

You might not agree with I don't think one good weapons makes a good ship. I think the Primus isn't well armed for its class, and I don't call two Sentri flights adaquate compensation.
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Postby Voronesh » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:40 pm

Uhh well.

A G'Quan gets alot less firepower. And i wont even compare it to an Omega. Sure they make up at close range, but you do need to get there first. Something the Primus doesnt have to do.

Replacing the Twin Particles is a nice idea. But the AD would be lower on that. Otherwise youd run the danger of hitting the usual housemade munchkin ships.

I remeber the beamless Centauri they were definitely fun. But that is trading the beam against the Ion cannon.
"We are out of energy mines sir!"
"What? When did logistics stop supplying us?"
"2nd edition, sir."


Don't mind me, im just playing Devil's Advocate of the Shuuka.
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Postby Right Hand of God » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:45 pm

I tend to agree about the primus being under gunned for its class. Ok the 6 beam shots are lovely, and it is far better than its Narn counterpart it a stand up slugfest, but I agree that the two flights carried by a primus in no way make up for the extra weapons on a Tertius. Even a Secundus is a better option in some respects
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Postby Lord David the Denied » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:48 pm

I'd be happy with 8 or 6 AD of SP, DD secondaries over the 10AD of TL secondaries the Primus currently gets. It just seems wrong to me that ships like the Dargan and Centurion can mount large matter cannon batteries as well as substantial twin arrays, but the Primus just gets a big beam. It's a nice beam, but that's all the ship has. Like the Sulust, it's a one-trick pony.

As for the other ships mentioned, both have better secondaries and fighter complements than the Primus and the Omega is better defended.

Beamless Centauri would be fine, too, if it's more accurate to the source material. They'd suffer more in the face of interceptors but if the AD and weapon traits were right, it'd work.
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Postby Voronesh » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:49 pm

Well yes, but most people consider the Terius to be a little bit too good.

Not much, but just a tad bit. (like take off 2 AD front and 1 AD aft, but thats my opinion, i have stopped fielding a Tertius and consider the Primus to be very nice)

Otherwise we might get EA players to clamor that all their ships are far too weak compared against their lovely Sag......

And comparing against the G'Quan its evil.
But lets do the Primus comparison.

Damagetaking ability, G'Quan is ahead against beams, but interceptos can take some damage off. Its too racespecific...but id count the G'Quan to be slightly ahead here.
Primus is 2" faster.

Weaponry:
3 AD boresighted versus 6 AD frontarced. Primus wins be a huge margin. CAF and APTE give it a huge boost beyond simply having twice the AD. And twice the crit ability. AT range even a measly engine hit can take a huge turn for the worse.
Emines. Nothing comparable on the Primus, but in an Antiship role they will have little effect. Less than 2 damage every turn and no crits ever.
Secondaries. Twinlinked and weak cancel each other out, discounting hull6. Makes for 16 dice on the G'Quan. The Primus gets 10 TL front and less to sides and rear. But that is not a place where the enemy is supposed to be anyway. G'Quan wins here.

Now you have to compare the damage ability of ranged and deadly beam firepower against the G'Quans brawler attitude. Ship Breakers will net extra damage up close. But only at seriously close range. Something the Centauri can then avoid for a while by going even slower. Which again the Narn can apply by using APTE if he wants to lose his beam.

Overall id count them as balanced. I have not gone into fighters too much, but Narn Frazies arent the best at taking damage.....
"We are out of energy mines sir!"
"What? When did logistics stop supplying us?"
"2nd edition, sir."


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Postby Lord David the Denied » Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:05 pm

Don't forget that the e-mines can be used to cancel special actions. You CAFed on the G'Quan? Bounce an ionic burst mine off you and bang goes your re-roll. G'Quan is also very tough, hard to kill even with 6AD of beams. Only a jammy set of rolls will off that ship in more than three or four turns of firing. The battle laser is great if you roll well. 12 hits is nice, but I've seen 1 or 2 much more often.

Maybe it's just a perception, but the Primus seems be undergunned. When you're only firing one weapon from your battle-level choice every turn and relying on good luck to do your damage you don't feel like the Lion of the Galaxy, crushing all before you. You feel like you're sailing a mediocre ship and the savage Narns ahead of you have the better deal.

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