White Star fixes (Armageddon)

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White Star fixes (Armageddon)

Postby kritikalfailure » Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:04 am

I'm wondering if the Dodge 4+ and the Molecular Pulsar losing the Precise trait also applies to the WS2.

My first guess is no, but I'd like to get a few opinions on this matter.
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Postby Triggy » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:01 am

The WSC-2 remains unchanged.
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Postby lastbesthope » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:47 pm

What Triggy said, Matt Sprange said it was a sort of 'upgrade' for the WSC-2 to be left unchanged.

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Postby Voronesh » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:01 pm

Or rather the WS-2 is ok for a battle vll ship. But it cant compete against a overpowered raid lvl ship ^^.

Hrm i dunno if thats whats going to happen to the Nova. Why Nova when you get Sags galore?
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Postby Nomad » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:39 pm

Hrm i dunno if thats whats going to happen to the Nova. Why Nova when you get Sags galore?
Good point. I'd like to see the Nova recast in v2 - she is a dreadnought, and should fight like one (Battle PL, hull6, damage 44/9, 'laser' component of the LPAs range increased to 18").
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Postby Voronesh » Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:47 pm

Yes but she is only a true dreadnought in the early era list.

Compared to an Omega shes just an escort. Thats the problem with the Priority lvls......name is not indicative fo actual mission. Often yers but not always.

First ones and Minbari stray alot further as well. Their main line vessel is at war. The escort is at battle and the skirmishers or hunters are at raid.....for Minnies.
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Postby Nomad » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:01 pm

Compared to an Omega shes just an escort
Says who? In B5W the Nova was *more* expensive than the Omega, and the fluff indicated that that she was very much Earth's "Big Stick" - the Omega being optimised for long-range patrols - hence the spin hab - rather than head on combat.

The Nova was never meant to be equal to the Hyperion - that's why one is a dreadnought, and the other is a heavy cruiser.
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Postby Voronesh » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:08 pm

And the Destroyer ands up being more powerful than a heavy cruiser?

EA nomenclature is nothing to go by.

And in this case i dunno about B5Wars canon. Never played it.

But on screen the Nova has a single appereance and there it is kinda in ground support. Which it has ended up as not doing it.

So i really duinno about it.

And it IS older than the Omega. Should make it less powerful. Normally you dont develop something new on an old frame to make it less powerful.
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Postby Commador Q » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:29 pm

Voronesh wrote:
And it IS older than the Omega. Should make it less powerful. Normally you dont develop something new on an old frame to make it less powerful.
unless you build it to perform a different mission. perhaps operational range and endurance may be prioritised at the expence of raw firepower.
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Postby Voronesh » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:35 pm

True with a totally different mission, youd want a different ship.

But Earth was defended by Omegas, not Novae. Having the long ranged ships home for defense (also seen when Sheridan attacks Shadow ship at Jupiter) and the big stick with many weapons apparently elsewhere doesnt seemt o make too much sense. And Clarke is the typical tyrant who makes decisions to save his own ass. That also points to having the biggest sticks at home.
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Postby Nomad » Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:46 pm

But on screen the Nova has a single appereance
Turns up in GROPOS; in many scenes in In The Beginning; and in a number of episodes dealing with the first contact between Earth and the Minbari, and the death of Dukhat. That's off the top of my head, there may be others.

And, as has been said by others, JMS considers B5W canon, so it's not that easy to dismiss. (I started playing it in '98, and occaisionally still do).

Cdr Q is correct, the Omega was developed to fulfil a different role - the LPAs are repeatedly refered to as "difficult to maintain", not kit you want on a long-endurance patrol.

In any case, the main argument for recasting the Nova comes from the Armageddon for the Dilgar thread - how did the EA defeat the Dilgar, with no effecive direct combatant above Raid PL? (I discount the cripplingly slow Orestes). Placing the Nova as a Battleship resolves this, at least in part.
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Postby Voronesh » Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:05 pm

Well yes. You are right.

But why have the Novae as difficult to maintain and big stick galore not a single appearance in Eraths defense.........

And i think Dilgar should get put down to raid. Instead of boosting the Nova. Simply because the Hyperion is considered to lead task forces and the Nova is the 'escort' vessel. It is rare that bigger ships escort the smaller ones.
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Postby Apachex » Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:10 pm

Voronesh wrote: But why have the Novae as difficult to maintain and big stick galore not a single appearance in Eraths defense.........
...because the CGI guys thought the Omegas looked cooler? Seriously, in the show we saw ships in the order they were created by the CGI guys, not how they appeared in the fictional universe. The hyperion came out, then some guys adapted the ship from 2010 and added it to the mix. To escort the Gropos, the CGI guys came up with a badass looking Battleship. Later, when movies/shows about the past were required, they used existing models to save money. During some of the battle scenes with the Minbari in "In the Beginning" you can even see Omegas. This is a cheap CGI vs. continuity thing, not a fictional universe thing.

*The EAS Schwarztkopf was seen firing in the battle scene near the Io transfer point in "Messages From Earth" IIRC.


After the ship's introduction during Gropo's I always thought of it as being an orbital bombardment platform. The role of "Dreadnaught" infers that it should be more of a battle level ship however.
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Postby captainsmirk » Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:53 pm

Well there is the problem with trying to apply modern naval nomlecature in a sci-fi setting. Perhaps the meaning/role of a term has changed. Is the role of modern frigate anything like that of a frigate from the age of sail? Is a modern Destroyer specifically designed to hunt Torpedo boats?

In fact on the destroyer thing, the Destroyer is the main line ship of most major navies today, not the cruiser or battleship. Many modern destroyers are bigger than WW2 cruisers. USN Destroyers are more capable than their few remaining cruisers. The role of the destroyer has change to adapt to the new technolgies of warfare since WW2 a mere 60 years. Technology has now moved into space and a gap of nearly 260 years...

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Postby Nomad » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:27 pm

Firstly, apologies to Kriticalfailiure - we appear to have hijacked your thread. Sorry about that.
But why have the Novae as difficult to maintain and big stick galore not a single appearance in Eraths defense.........
I'm not in a position right now to pull out the video, but I'm pretty sure Novas featured at the Battle of the Line - they're certainly present in numbers in the scenario in the Earth-Minbari War book.
the Hyperion is considered to lead task forces
Those would be Hyperion Command Prototypes, specialist ships for a special job. Don't forget, in real - life naval forces, the flagship tends to be the vessel with the best communications, not the biggest guns, for example HMS Scylla (a light cruiser) at Normandy, or the almost - unarmed post war command cruiser USS Northampton.

The E-M book already features the Nova Bolter Prototype, Battle PL (probably - there was some confusion) and with hull 6 and a much - increased weapons fit. Whilst the Bolter is an unusual weapon in EA service, this ship's abilities are close to what I'm suggesting Novas should have.

One argument for the disparity between the Nova and the Omega was to stop them 'competing' at Battle PL - this is now largely avoided by the division of the EA's list into three periods.
And i think Dilgar should get put down to raid
Matter of opinion. Having a Dilgar fleet, I'd have to disagree!
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Postby Voronesh » Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:50 pm

Well.

Ok may<be i should have put up a disclaimer.

Im only arguing from the TV show, not the spinoff movies.

Because Clarke sounds like the usual mad tyrant, that would pull his biggest sticks to defend earth, yet all you see is the Omega.

Ok you are right on the Command issue, but then again in space you cant hide within a fleet, on the ocean you have better chances of doing just that. Unless its alot of fighter/bombers coming in at ya.

And yes Dilgar make no sense as they are. Making the Nova go up to Battle.....i dont know. Tha would impact too much with the E-M war for my taste. There is prolly about 1 Nova for every Sharlin. (pure fuesswork, but itd fit). Humans are known for going crazy on the ships. Crusade era advances prove just that. 20 years after a won war, the fleet should be in good condition. And then they lose without a single 1% chance for any single battle. Would the Nova be at battle, you could pull a fleet of 10 of them, and even kill Sharlins.......

I think its nice where it is, just to compared against Sharlins and Primus.

But then again thats the problem of the PL system, i would be ok with making it a 1.3-1.5 raid lvl ship.
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Postby lastbesthope » Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:13 am

Voronesh wrote: But Earth was defended by Omegas, not Novae. Having the long ranged ships home for defense (also seen when Sheridan attacks Shadow ship at Jupiter)
That was as much for the effect on Sheridan of it being his old ship that found them as anything else, if his last posting before B5 had been a Poseidon, I'm sure that's what would have found them at Jupiter.

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Postby lastbesthope » Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:16 am

Nomad wrote:The E-M book already features the Nova Bolter Prototype, Battle PL (probably - there was some confusion)
It's been confirmed as Raid by the E-M War author here:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB ... olter+raid

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Postby Nomad » Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:24 am

If there are no Novas in the Clarke era it's because i) they're obsolete by then or ii) the CGI guys didn't think to use them. Are there any Olympii, Hyperions or Explorers in the same scene?

As for mad tyrants on the way down, they tend to use anything with a pulse - think Volksturm, think Kamikazes, not 'just the best'.

I'd think the movies are about as canon as the TV series. That's where the Olympus, the Raider Battlewagon, the Drakh, and, originally, the Victory class Destroyer come from. How many players want the Thirdspace bad guys, or the Liandra, in the game? I know I do.

Even with hull6 at Battle level, a Nova isn't much of a threat to a Sharlin. It's got about the same life expectancy as an Omega against those Precise, CAF'd long-range beams...not much.
There is prolly about 1 Nova for every Sharlin.
Well, with the Nova at raid level, right now there's about three!
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Postby lastbesthope » Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:28 am

One comment to those saying whether a ship exists in a time frame based on screen time:

"Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack"

Just because we never see one,doesn't mean they're not around somewhere.

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