A little Idea

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.

Would this work?

It works.
2
7%
Need more work but good idea.
20
67%
you need to see a doctor
8
27%
 
Total votes: 30
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lastbesthope
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Postby lastbesthope » Sat Sep 30, 2006 9:09 pm

Reaverman wrote:
Tank wrote:The Sagittarius hull was originally just a test bed for mounting missile racks not a purpose designed warship per se
Did you get that from the B5 wars Tank?
SFOS P.44, Sagi fluff text.

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LtLeonJonson
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Postby LtLeonJonson » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:57 am

Sorry guys, you've all zoomed right around the point issue here.

THe PL system as used by ACtA has one fundamental flaw, the ships are valued to their relative strength in their own fleet, yes the Hyperion is a Raid level ship, because it is reasonably fast and well armed/armoured. Same goes for the Chronos. The Apollo is a Battle Level vessel due to the way it opperates, and having missiles that can fire every turn is remarkably nasty. THe Warlock and Nemesis are Armadeggon level vessels for obvious reasons I hope. The Sagg is where it is under EA fleet doctrine, and that is as a light combat vessel, personally it should be raid, after all a good missile vessel is a very useful combat vessel, not to mention the armour and the number of weapon systems make it significantly stronger that what the PL says it should be.

When people compare ships across the races they forget the important thing, that is your compare like, and the PL more reflects Operational doctrine than actual fleet combat strength, after all look at the Minbari and Drahk in comparison to the EA Narn and Centari. I don't even half to mention the Vorlons and Shadows now do I?

NOw as for the ideas of rarity etc, it won't work on a PL system designed as ACtA is. This is the simple truth. It work destroy the balance that is already under threat from the new ships. I admit when I found out that the Warlock was put up as Armageddon PL I was pissed. It was a good War level ship, but next to Nemesis and Marathon ship classes, it had to be moved up. And as for the Sagg, withe the creation of the Apollo, theprevious function of the Sagg is replaced with a more capable vessel, so therefore its relative function has been downgraded. Sure the Dusk Cortai(someone please point me towards the stats) is a one off, but then look at the drawback of using it, at least going by the game fluff.

This doesn't even cover the imbalance issue of the current wordings of Stealth, not to mention many of the other traits, ie Interceptors. A wholistic approach must be used when you look at altering a point structure like this, it is really complex. Now yes, the Dag'Kar is not where it should be based on relative strengths, especially next to the Sagg, but again look at Narn fleet doctrine and it is where it needs to be, the way E-Mines work has to be altered, at least from a SFoS PoV, to make sure that it's place in its fleet is the right one. (You guys are lucky, I have to wait at least three months to recieve anything from Mongoose, hell an order I put in during April/May only arrived a couple of days ago now). The PL system is as much about how that race treats their military and doctrine as much as how strong a ship is.

Why do you think I haven't much progress on writing one fleet list for the system I am trying to put together? Only tweleve more to go when I have finished the first one.
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Postby Ripple » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:59 am

Uhm...no, or not entirely anyway...

The PL is not just a fluff aspect of the game, just telling us what the various fleets think of their own ships. It is the sole means of balancing ships between players to produce a reasonable fight (balance can be argued). Look at its use in tournament where balance is supposed to have been achieved, it is the tool used to make sure each player has a similar oppurtunity for victory.

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Wulf Corbett
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:03 pm

LtLeonJonson wrote:NOw as for the ideas of rarity etc, it won't work on a PL system designed as ACtA is. This is the simple truth.
It may be your simple truth but it isn't mine, nor many other people's. Just because you can't figure out how to balance it doesn't mean no-one can. Another case of opinion stated as fact.

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Postby katadder » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:07 pm

dont really think there should be a rarity thing myself as theres no reason why all the ships of a certain type couldnt happen to be in the same place atthe same time, just look at the series where pretty much all the Omega Xs were grouped nicely together to fight the whitestars.
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Wulf Corbett
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:09 pm

katadder wrote:dont really think there should be a rarity thing myself as theres no reason why all the ships of a certain type couldnt happen to be in the same place atthe same time, just look at the series where pretty much all the Omega Xs were grouped nicely together to fight the whitestars.
That was, however, a specific scenario tied to the storyline, not by any means a regular fleet.

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Voronesh
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Postby Voronesh » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:13 pm

And by what means is a tourney battle tied to any historical fleet composition.

First the battle is out of any storyline. So you could even assume the EA has 100 Omega-X and fight a huge battle for a special event.
Second as katadder mentioned that even in historical battles fleet rarity has little issue. Eg all we see is a rare Nova here or there. But they shouldnt be unique or very rare in 3rd age.......
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Wulf Corbett
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Postby Wulf Corbett » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:21 pm

Voronesh wrote:First the battle is out of any storyline. So you could even assume the EA has 100 Omega-X and fight a huge battle for a special event.
Second as katadder mentioned that even in historical battles fleet rarity has little issue. Eg all we see is a rare Nova here or there. But they shouldnt be unique or very rare in 3rd age.......
Exactly, and a rarity value would fix all these problems, and make the game a proper Babylon 5 based game again. You've hit the nail on the head. Introduce rarity values, and you get battles better fitting to the setting.

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Postby katadder » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:50 pm

actually hes sayign they shouldnt be unique or rare. if the drazi wanted they could field all 10 of the current solarhawks in one battle.
fleet high admiral or whatever asks for all 10 solarhawks for major engagement, govenrment says no cos they rare and you allowed one - but this is the defense of the drazi homeworld surely you can give me them all, nope sorry, just one, they are rare you know.
nothing is rare enough to not allow people more of them, this is what the PLs are for, to limit your choices. after all sharlins obviously arnt rare as is seen in the battle of the line just for an example. there is absolutely no reason to put artificial limits on peoples fleets. if someone wants 10 sagis, then let them, then either JP bomb them and finish off the survivors or refuse to play him for beaing a beardy bugger.
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Postby captainsmirk » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:48 pm

katadder wrote:actually hes sayign they shouldnt be unique
Well if their unique then they can't have more than one of them, no matter how much they may want them...

Plus if they got pushed back to the Drazi homeworld they would perhaps have lost some Solarhawks in the battles that must have been fought to have got to that stage? (OK ignore that last statement... :oops:)


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Postby Ripple » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:25 pm

The rarity issue is designed in part to deal with situations where you cannot simply refuse to play him cause he's a beardy bastage. And many scenarios do not allow for JPing in behind (into the heavy missles btw) and finishing the survivors.

Wether you support or oppose the idea of rarity, do try to comment on it in the terms it is designed for, ie tournament/campaign where you do not have the option of what battle your fighting, who your opponent is and cannot custom your fleet for dealing with your opponents.

This is intended for fights that are taking place in a compromise situation. Pick-ups with folks you do not know, perhaps. A way of letting folks know what the etiquette is on fleet selection, without having to have been a member of the club for weeks to know what 'beardy' means around here.

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Voronesh
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Postby Voronesh » Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:10 pm

Yes but you do not have to fight every pickup game. For people you know, they would prolly not show up with a munchfleet. And people you dont know....either id play them anyway, cause i dont care about outcome, or i simply cancel the game.

And at tourneys the ships need to be as balanced as possible anyway. Having an ubership reduced to a low rarity still gives an unfair advantage. And kinda only legalizes the ship alittle.

Dunno how rarity would help with either.

In a campaign, well it is kinda funny if someone starts to build up a Sag fleet, and there is enough time beforehand to tell it to him.
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Tank
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Postby Tank » Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:17 am

Seriously, have the Medics been detained or something? :lol:
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Postby Ripple » Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:41 am

Just think they are watching the poll, 20 to 7 in favor of the tweaking. Figure they will head out if the gap closes to under three points.

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