Chronos

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
Arcadia
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Postby Arcadia » Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:21 pm

katadder wrote:looks ok like that but as been stated elsewhere, why bother when the hyperion is does the same job at the same PL?
Yes,

After looking at Burger’s ship viewer it is a hyperion with hull 6 and railgun. This is the third try at improved chronos: Lose traits for pulse cannon and 2 AD only improve the range of the railgun to equal the Warlock’s. Leave the beam job to the hyperion.

Chronos Heavy Railgun
PL: Raid
Speed: 8
Turns: 2/45
Hull: 6
Damage: 20/5
Crew: 18/5
Troops: 2
Special: Interceptors 3

Weapons
Railgun: 20", T, AD 6, AP DD
Heavy Pulse Cannon: Range 12", F, AD 6
Heavy Pulse Cannon: Range 12", P S A, AD 4
Particle Beams: 5", P S, AD 4, AF Weak

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E-Mines Hurt
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Postby E-Mines Hurt » Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:59 am

A Chronos variant makes no sense.....

not because they wouldn't be cool ships, but for the simple reason the Chronos is a front line purposly designed ship. The variants would be done for the ships the chronos replaces (like the olympus). Following the same logic there should be Omega Variants, not Chronos ones.

Furthermore, variants (of all normal kinds) tend to be variants of common available hulls, which are adaptable. Ships like the Saggitarius are unlikely to be adaptable since they are designed for one purpose. But multipurpose ships with lots of space like the Omega are the variant candidates. The chronos seems to be as small as possible carrying as many guns as possible.
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Postby Ripple » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:15 am

The Chronus is becoming the commonly avialable hull in the Crusade era, replacing all ships smaller than the marathon. Omega variants exist, so do hyperion variants...why? They were purpose built ships at one time, front line and long patrol if I remember correctly.

Why design and test a totally new chassis when all you need is a different weapon load out for taking on a specific type of opponent. Tactical needs will overide the 'intended use' of the design every time. If it works they'll built a shed load more right away.

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E-Mines Hurt
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Postby E-Mines Hurt » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:47 am

My point is as follows, variants are either upgrades, ie changes that make the ship better at its primary task. Just like the F-15Cs have been upgraded to F-15Es allowing them improved primary task capabilities they had before, plus a ground attack capability. While obsolete airframes such as the F-4 Phantom were used in the Wild Weasle electronic warfare aircraft. The British used old 1950s carrier bombers called Buccaneers as specialized Laser Guide aircraft during Gulf War I.

In the Case of new ships like the Chronos, Marathon and Nemesis they are in the process of replacing the Olympus, Late Model Hyperions and Omegas which are presumably still in service. The models being replaced are given over to specialist tasks such as bombardment (missile), assault or other variants.

Presumably after a the civil war and the shadow wars (and the Drakh War) the EA is in a situation of high production and low availability of resources. So new production goes to high priority areas, i.e. long range ships and cutting edge warships, while obsolete and mothballed ships would be adapted to support roles. The best anology should be Israeli Armour. Where tank hulls go from front line tanks, to support tanks to chasses for self propelled artillery and re-supply tractors over the history of a hull. The Israelis were still using WWII era Sherman and captured T-55 hulls for other tasks as late as the Lebanon invasion in 1982.

Also, the German conversion program to self propelled guns used obsolete Pz-I, Pz-II and captured Czech and French tank chassis for the StuGs, Hummels and Wespe.

So what I am proposing, is that it is more plausable that we find bombardment, assault, carrier and cargo versions of the Omega before they start the complicated engineering task of putting a large laser on a nice 4 AD, B, SAP, TD boresighted beamweapon on a newly built ship one PL above it...
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Postby captainsmirk » Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:14 pm

Except they are obviously not replacing the Omega, considering the number of Omega's which made up the Earth fleet in A Call to Arms the movie, and which appeared in the series Crusade. I don't think the EA would just throw out such a large number of perfectly servicible ships. From appearences the Marathon is more a Hyperion replacement (ignoring its PL in game which is hardly a factor which effects the EA's fluff reasons for doing things within the universe).

Plus the Marathon is described as being a problematic ship which means its unlikely to be built in large enough numbers to replace the Omega. I see the Omega as remaining at the core of the EA fleet for some years to come yet.

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Postby Voronesh » Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:37 pm

Well the Marathon is replacing the Hyperion as main destroyer pack hunter.

And the Warlock is the actual Omega replacement......but the consider this:

The Omega as main line cruiser class vessel is a lvl below the Sharlin. Apply some black shadow tech, and tadaa, you get a vessel vastly superior...and that within a timespan of what? 3 years........

And i dont think that a Warlock can take one a Shadow battlecrab or a Vorlon HC, with 50% chances of winning.........

Well the stats are too bad yes, but i think the Warlock should NOT be armageddon..... they basically managed to enhance their tech fourfold (battle to armageddon) with the simple application of some shadowtech :S

The Drakh thrive on Shadowtech and all they manage is a battle lvl cruiser :S
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Postby Triggy » Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:01 pm

Voronesh wrote:Well the Marathon is replacing the Hyperion as main destroyer pack hunter.

And the Warlock is the actual Omega replacement......but the consider this:

The Omega as main line cruiser class vessel is a lvl below the Sharlin. Apply some black shadow tech, and tadaa, you get a vessel vastly superior...and that within a timespan of what? 3 years........

And i dont think that a Warlock can take one a Shadow battlecrab or a Vorlon HC, with 50% chances of winning.........

Well the stats are too bad yes, but i think the Warlock should NOT be armageddon..... they basically managed to enhance their tech fourfold (battle to armageddon) with the simple application of some shadowtech :S

The Drakh thrive on Shadowtech and all they manage is a battle lvl cruiser :S
You are correct that the Marathon is the Hyperion replacement but the Warlock is actually the replacement for the Nova. If anything the long-term replacement for the Omega may be the Nemesis but even in the Crusade fleet it is still a ship in testing.
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Lord David the Denied
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Postby Lord David the Denied » Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:18 pm

The Omega is meant to replace the Hyperion. How can the Warlock be meant to replace an obsolete design that's already been replaced once?
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Postby Guchi » Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:27 pm

Er, the Nova has only been replaced once, by the Warlock.

As it stands, I think the warlock and the shadow omega should have stayed and War, from the small amount you see on screen of either I can't say they made the same impression as a Shadow crab or any of the vorlon ships, so I thing Mongoose went a little Armageddon crazy with these two.
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Postby Karhedron » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:10 pm

I agree, at least one of those ships (and probably both IMHO) should have remained at War level. It seems strange that adding Shadow tech to a Battle level Omega suddenly produces and armageddon level ship while adding more shadow tech to a Warlock produces a ship that is just different rather than superior.

I will seriously be pushing for the Warlock and Shadow Omega to be dropped back to War level in 2nd edition (only a year to go :roll: ). As it stands, EA lacks a ship that can stand up to the Bin Tak or Octurion, never mind a Sharlin. :(
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Postby E-Mines Hurt » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:48 pm

captainsmirk wrote:Except they are obviously not replacing the Omega, considering the number of Omega's which made up the Earth fleet in A Call to Arms the movie, and which appeared in the series Crusade. I don't think the EA would just throw out such a large number of perfectly servicible ships. From appearences the Marathon is more a Hyperion replacement (ignoring its PL in game which is hardly a factor which effects the EA's fluff reasons for doing things within the universe).

Plus the Marathon is described as being a problematic ship which means its unlikely to be built in large enough numbers to replace the Omega. I see the Omega as remaining at the core of the EA fleet for some years to come yet.

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Warlock and Nemisis replace the Omega as line ships..
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Postby captainsmirk » Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:55 pm

Well in the series I didn't see that happening, in a Call to Arms and Crusade the most common EA ship seen is the Omega. We see only one Warlock in Crusade and several Omegas.

In game as they are both Armageddon level I don't see them appearing any more often than the Omega does. Of course the Marathon now seems a preferable choice at Battle. However that is in no way representative of what is happening in the background (I doubt the EA divides its ships up into Patrol, Skirmish, Raid, etc Priority levels). Plus fluff wise it states that 12 Marathons have been built so far, where as they are able to field 36 Omegas for one battle in Endgame.

Doesn't seem much like a wholesale replacement to me...

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Postby E-Mines Hurt » Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:40 am

captainsmirk wrote:Well in the series I didn't see that happening, in a Call to Arms and Crusade the most common EA ship seen is the Omega. We see only one Warlock in Crusade and several Omegas.

In game as they are both Armageddon level I don't see them appearing any more often than the Omega does. Of course the Marathon now seems a preferable choice at Battle. However that is in no way representative of what is happening in the background (I doubt the EA divides its ships up into Patrol, Skirmish, Raid, etc Priority levels). Plus fluff wise it states that 12 Marathons have been built so far, where as they are able to field 36 Omegas for one battle in Endgame.

Doesn't seem much like a wholesale replacement to me...

Nick
they do this after the scope of the series...
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Postby captainsmirk » Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:18 am

I still don't see it happening for some time yet, in many ways these ships are still experimental, as noted in the description of the Marathon many of its systems were developed in facilities now under quarantine on Earth, and its computer thingy doesn't work right. I think they are more likely to lead to other Line ship designs in the future. The Warlock is the only one which I can see being built in larger numbers in the near future.

Can't remember where but I saw a story or maybe it was a B5wars scenario (if so then not perhaps the best source) about the Shadow tech used in Earth ships being vunerable to manipulation by the Drakh who have a much better understanding of how it works.

And personally I don't like the overt Shadow tech thing in the new EA ships anyway, I prefer the hidden stuff idea like in the Warlock, fits in more with most B5 themes than the other, we saw how pissed off everyone was about the Shadow Omega. I just think they would for the moment so soon after the Shadow war be more discreet about it.
JMS's short story about Ivanova's Warlock shows the characters surprised about the Shadow tech within the ship, I don't see the EA moving into the open with it so soon. But I guess thats just my opinion.

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Postby Goldritter » Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:21 am

The question is, if the Nemesis and the Marathon are "open warefare" ships. Like the Omega and the Warlock.

I think, that the Nemesis and the Marathon are used in more covered operations. So that the information of these ships are not revealed.
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Postby captainsmirk » Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:26 am

Well true...

The more I think about it the Drakh-Shadow tech thing was probably from a fan-created B5wars scenario but I still think its an interesting idea. The Drakh would have a much greater understanding of Shadow tech because:
(a) They've been working with it for much longer.
and
(b) when they first got access to it they had the Shadows around to show them what's what.
Thus since these new EA ships have lots of Shadow tech they may not be the best Drakh busting ships after all. :twisted:

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Postby Tank » Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:09 pm

Just thought Id join in

Marathon replaces Hyperion
Chronos replaces Artemis & Olympus
Delphi replaces Oracle
Apollo doesnt really replace anything, designed to fill a capability gap in the fleet with the demise of the Sagittarius
Omega again was more of a design for a capability gap after seeing what every other race had as a mainline warship
Warlock was designed to replace the Nova and act as a fleet command ship
Nemesis wasnt designed to replace anything they built it coz the could
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Postby Lord David the Denied » Sun Oct 08, 2006 6:11 pm

The Hyperion and Nova were the main "line" ships for EA before the Omega was designed. Just about every fluff resource I've seen states that the Omega was meant to fill the Hyperion's role.
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Postby Tank » Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:56 pm

Well kinda but he Omega was supposed to be a bigger step from the Hyperion to match the main line ships of the other races not necassarily as a replacement, remember capability gaps :lol:
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Postby Voronesh » Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:15 pm

Well you are all right. The Warlock replaces the Nova.

But the Nova is at raid. And very old.

The main line ship of the fleet during the 3rd age is the Omega. And the planned main line ship is kinda supposed to be the Warlock.

The Marathon is more the escort vessels, going by class name.

From ACTA stats and capabilities it feels very different:
The Marathon makes a good main line vessels, although it with so much speed it will be shlashing across enemy battle lines from the flank, while Apollos and Chronos hold the center. The Warlock and Nemesis will be rarely seen ships that fill out the center in huge fleet engagements, with Marathons appearing as pack hunters.

The Warlock should be downgraded to war, simply keep the SFOS stats. That would still give the Shadow tech appliance a factor of pushing an Omega to Sharlin lvls, but that should be ok. But applying Shadow tech to an Omega, or designing a ship in such a way, should not give a young race a ship to take on first ones in earnest :S
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