Why is the Nemesis an Armageddon Level Ship ?

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Why is the Nemesis an Armageddon Level Ship ?

Postby Goldritter » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:08 am

I´ve looked at the stats of the EA Nemesis which I found in Signs & Portens 35 and wonder, why this ship is on Armageddon Level.

If I compare it with an Octurion, and the Octurion alone has a fair chance to destroy the Nemesis.

First the Octurion has the better weapon loadout and can dish out more damage to the side and on longer range as the Nemesis.

Second the Octurion has the better Initative count so that the Nemesis can´t use it´s main Weapon.

The Plus on the Nemesis side is a 3" better Speed and the 6 Interceptors.
But maximal after 6 hits the Interceptors are depleted (and the Octurion can has alone 18 AD on the Side on 10").

the Flight Computer is a big plus, but I don´t think that this can be the level up for the ship.

Do you have other ideas why the Nemesis is on Armageddon level and I´m wrong with my opinion ?
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Postby H » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:25 am

in all fairness, most warships have a pretty decent chance against a lot of the armageddon ships, the KaBinTak has an almost identical weapon loadout to the bintak, apart from some longer range mines, turret torp, and loosing weak off some guns, other than that it just gains some frazis, a carrier trait and about a 50% increase in damage and suchlike. It seems to be the norm really, only the Victory seems to have gone significantly upwards, and thats due to the large number of damage points and adaptive armour, weaponswise, it's not all that much better.
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Postby Goldritter » Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:30 am

But the Nemesis is a "Shadow Warlock" and has a weaker weapon loadout as the Warlock :shock: .

Why should I ever take a Nemesis and not a Warlock.
Even in a campaign where the 1d6 Self repair reduce the RR you must spend on the ships it is not so good. Because if the ship is destroyed it can´t use it´s Self Repair.

Or does I miss something.
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Postby katadder » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:07 pm

cos it looks cool. the nemesis and warlock are fairly equal apart from the nemesis doesnt have slow loading missiles, has a longer range on its beam, has d6 self repair and almost all weapons are mini beams so can ignore the warlocks interceptors. plus if minbari are in ur campaign theres the +1 to break stealth. and campaign play that self repair can be a real boost if its not killed, unlike the costly repairs to a warlock thats not kiled.
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Postby Goldritter » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:15 pm

For the main weapon it´s correct, that the Nemesis has the longer range.
But nor for the secondary Weapons.
The Warlock has a 15/12 range and for the 12" AP,Beam, so he can Ignore the Interceptors of the Nemesis too and can be out of his secondary weapons which has only 10" range.
So the Nemesis is dog food for every ship wich can outmanouver it and has weapons with Beam or Mini-Beam with a range of 11"+.

And I think this is a great disadvantage for a War+ Level ship if it´s secondary arments has only a Range of 10".

The Octurions Matter Cannons has a range of 15" and he has it on all Arcs (and there between 6 and 10 AD).
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Postby Goldritter » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:19 pm

Ahh...
And the Warlock has a command bonus, so the Warlock has mainly the initiative.
(So in a direct confrontation he has the chance to use it´s main weapon more often as the Nemesis.)

And in a Battle the Command Bonus is a good addition for the fleet.
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Postby katadder » Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:29 pm

really its gonna come down to personal choice, if someone is in my side usually they within 10" anyway then the twinlinked minibeams will over come the half AD beams you throw out the side. the nemesis can fire its missiles every turn, its better against stealthed targets and targets with lots of interceptors. its better in campaign due to self repair, in fact in a battle versus the warlock it may outlast it sometimes due to that trait alone. in fleet engagements you may have the poisedon anyway at that size so the +2 command of the warlock isnt a huge thing.
you could start the same argument over the marathon/omega. the omega has more range on main weapons and more forward dice on secondays at shorter range tho. the omega has more fighters but less interceptors. the omega has more damage and crew. which one you pick in the end will come down to personal choice again.
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Postby Goldritter » Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:02 pm

I think I need to play some fights with Warlock and Nemesis in a campaign.

8)
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Postby locarno24 » Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:29 pm

Is it just me who finds it a bit random that the 'upgraded' version of the warlock is the same priority as the 'unupgraded' version?
Understand that I'm not advocating violence.
I'm just saying that it's highly effective and I strongly recommend using it.
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Postby H » Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:11 pm

how so, the warlock is a war level ship in sfos, the upgraded armagedon version is armagedon level?
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Postby Goldritter » Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:21 pm

The Warlock is now Armageddon Level and the "Shadow Warlock" aka Nemesis is Armageddon Level too, but with less Weapons and some gimmicks.
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Postby Pauly_D » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:36 am

Goldritter wrote:The Warlock is now Armageddon Level and the "Shadow Warlock" aka Nemesis is Armageddon Level too, but with less Weapons and some gimmicks.
yeh but we couldnt really put the Nemesis up a priority level, Armageddeon is as high as it goes for non-ancients
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Postby Locutus9956 » Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:53 am

Personally, whilst I can see the nemesis having its uses at times I tend to prefer the Warlock for the most part. Id have been happier if theyd left the Warlock at War level and made the Nemesis twice as good (roughly).

Will see for myself more thoughrouly when I get hold of a copy of the legendary Armageddon (eventually).
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Postby Voronesh » Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:42 am

Hrm.....

i guess the comic exclamation of Slighly Norse John counts for all new ships..

How come they produce undetailed stuff, and make rules for them that are between balanced and apparently underpowered....must be a new marketing strategy.....

No i really dont get it, if the Ka'Bin'Tak has barely upgraded weaponry over its smaller counterpart, its practically useless....cause 2 Bin'Taks will prolly have the same damage overall.....
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Postby Goldritter » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:51 am

What I don´t understand is, that the Nemesis has over 50% of his Firepower in the Front.

But EA Ships have normali a high firepower in the Front and in the Rear Arcs.
Even the Warlock has a decent firepower in the rear Arc.
Same for the Apollo, Chronos and Delphi.

And what I´ve heard about the Marathon even this Ship has it.

And if the Warlock is realy the replacement for the Nova Dreadnought and the Nemesis the advanced Warlock. It needed some more weapons in the side Arcs or in the rear.
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Postby Goldritter » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:56 am

katadder wrote: you could start the same argument over the marathon/omega. the omega has more range on main weapons and more forward dice on secondays at shorter range tho. the omega has more fighters but less interceptors. the omega has more damage and crew. which one you pick in the end will come down to personal choice again.
But the Marathon is as manouverable as the Hyperion, which is a big plus if you want to use the main weapon. And it´s the fastes EA Ship.
I think the difference between this two is if you want a fast and manouverable Ship or a slow and good armed ship.

But the Nemesis is not more manouverable as the Warlock and has fewer weapons. :?

But I will first play some games, before I can realy say how good the Nemesis is.
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Postby Locutus9956 » Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:03 am

From the looks of it the Nemeis is very much like the Shadow Omega, its a sniper that picks off enemies from beyond their effective range. Personally I think the Warlocks more in your face brawler operation works better with the EA anway.

One point though, I wouldnt go so far as to say the EA ships all have good rear firepower. SOME of them do but for most simply HAVING rear weapons doesnt equate to them being good. To take an example from the ships mentioned, the Apollo's rear firepower is a joke, sure its 30" range but 2 missiles arent really much firepower for a battleship!

The Warlock (going from the SFoS and tourney versions here as Ive yet to see the Armageddon version) also has basically got its rail guns in the aft which while not a complete waste of time are still no more aft firepower than most ships of that size.

My point is that if you look at MOST EA ships over raid level they have nearly ALL their firepower in the forward arc (and in many cases most of it in the form of boresighted weapons). Also as noted I CAN think of two time I WOULD use a Nemesis. Vs Minbari or other EA. Vs Minbari the HEL system is a HUGE bonus and against other EA the beams and minibeams really count for quite alot against all those interceptors (same could be said fighting Abbai but as it stands I dont think Abbai stand up very well against EA anyway so are not number one on my threat list by a LONG way)
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Postby Goldritter » Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:14 am

The only plus the Nemesis has against Minbari is the HEL.
But the Minbari has the longer range. The main weapon has a 30" Front Arc and the secondary weapons are 18" with AP and Mini-Beam.
And the Minbari has mainly the initiative so that the Nemesis need Inititave Sinks to use his Main Weapon.

And the other Weapon has a range of 12" or 10". And I don´t think, that a Minbari Player let the Nemesis close on on his Ships so that the Nemesis can use the Other Weapons.

The Missile can be effective, but you can´t hope for crits always.
And if the MInabri can get on the Side or in the rear of the Nemesis and hold a range of 11"+ the Nemesis will be shreddered.
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Postby Goldritter » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:15 am

Locutus9956 wrote: To take an example from the ships mentioned, the Apollo's rear firepower is a joke, sure its 30" range but 2 missiles arent really much firepower for a battleship!
O.K the Apollo is bad example. For a Battle Level Ship it has too low Damage, too low Crew and too low Firepower. (I wonder too, that the Apollo is a Battle Level Ship, where the Saggittarius is now a Skirmish Ship ??? )

Does anybody use the Apollo ?
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Postby sidewinder » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:39 am

Yeah, they dont have a level past armagedon, yet. Its starting to look like they should have went with a point based system to start with. Makes it easier to balance.[/quote]

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