Armageddon for the Dilgar

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.
User avatar
Nomad
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1002
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:54 pm
Location: Manchester

Armageddon for the Dilgar

Postby Nomad » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:22 pm

Could someone give me a general idea of the changes to the Dilgar in Armageddon?
Women and Captains first!
User avatar
Gungnir
Mongoose
Posts: 113
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 8:29 am
Location: Vree examination room, awaiting the probe of doom !!

Postby Gungnir » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:25 pm

Not many :

Thoruns now have the atmospheric trait
Virus Bombs can attack troops or emplacements
Pentacons still act as pentacons even when reduced to below 4 ships

Think thats about it :D
Some people on these forums really do worry me.

Wheel of Fire - 5th
User avatar
Nomad
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1002
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 6:54 pm
Location: Manchester

Postby Nomad » Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:01 am

Thanks, Gungnir!

...no Raid PL Mishakurs, damn....
Women and Captains first!
Slightly Norse John
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 923
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:31 pm

Postby Slightly Norse John » Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:43 am

Banks of 12AD, Double damage AP aren't enough for you?
Seriously, even if it fitted the background, there simply aren't many more ways for the Dilgar to develop. Their huge buckets of medium- lethality dice on moderately survivable, seriously fast hulls are already a pretty effective solution to most problems. Smaller numbers of individually more capable dice rather than simply more of the same, and that means inventing new systems.

On the other hand, here's one I perpetrated earlier...

Dilgar Tuvathrakur Superdreadnought, PL Armageddon
Speed 8, turn 2/45, Jump Point, Shuttles 3, Command +2
Hull 6, damage 76/8, crew 84/10, troops 12, 4 Thorun flights
Heavy Bolters- range 15, Double damage AP, 10AD F, 6AD P,S,A
Quad Pulsars- range 10, twin linked, 8AD each F,A,P,S
Pulsar Stream Cannon- range 30, Double damage twin linked, 6AD F,A,P,S
Superheavy Bolter- range 20, F, 12AD, Super AP Triple damage (crits resolved as two double damage, rather than x4)
Scatter pulsars- range 8, T, 8AD, anti- fighter

I've been disappointed with the stats I've seen so far. 'Armageddon' should mean something, ships that are genuinely terrifying, sufficiently superior to be the centre-points of a fleet, ships that could single- handedly take on and eliminate a conventional battle squadron. That was the benchmark I was aiming at. Overdone, or nicely nasty?
User avatar
Voronesh
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:11 pm
Location: Heidelberg

Postby Voronesh » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:33 am

But Armegeddon ships cannot be allowed to be much better than the usual 1.8/1.9 ships of war lvl. Otherwise why take smaller ships again?
"We are out of energy mines sir!"
"What? When did logistics stop supplying us?"
"2nd edition, sir."


Don't mind me, im just playing Devil's Advocate of the Shuuka.
User avatar
Reborn
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2005
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:32 pm
Location: Selly Oak, Birmingham
Contact:

Postby Reborn » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:11 am

I couldn't ever really see the Dilgar having an Armageddon level ship - if their ships could be defeated by Earth Raid-level ships, then they couldn't have been that good, as we know the Dilgar had loads of ships from the Dilgar Imperium book. So I just couldn't accept it really.
User avatar
Voronesh
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:11 pm
Location: Heidelberg

Postby Voronesh » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:20 am

that is the problem with the upgrades the Dilgar got to stay competitive.

Crusade era stuff or Minbari should be able to give Dilgar a run for their money within a single turn. Yet it doesnt happen.

Dilgar got a huge boost on their actual abilities (Background fluff versus playability). In reality the DIlgar fleet should maybe have a battle choice, compare do stuff like 3rd age EA and Centauri.
"We are out of energy mines sir!"
"What? When did logistics stop supplying us?"
"2nd edition, sir."


Don't mind me, im just playing Devil's Advocate of the Shuuka.
User avatar
TenaciousB
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 519
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:22 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Postby TenaciousB » Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:57 am

Reborn wrote:I couldn't ever really see the Dilgar having an Armageddon level ship - if their ships could be defeated by Earth Raid-level ships, then they couldn't have been that good, as we know the Dilgar had loads of ships from the Dilgar Imperium book. So I just couldn't accept it really.
I disagree - why should the Dilgar get left out of the Armageddon goodness? All the other races seem to be getting some nice and shiny stuff - why should a long-extinct race be left behind? :lol:

From the fluff about the Tikrit (I think it's the Tikrit - may be another ship I'm thinking of) in the book, it mentions development of another ship - I thought this was deliberately put in by the designers to "leave the door open", so to speak, for further ships.

Plus, the latest issue of Signs and Portents has the Ghosts of Omelos list - by using cloning technology, it seems you can't keep a good Dilgar down....
Image
an internet scifi serial from Northern Ireland
Visit The Screaming Room!
Kadorak
Stoat
Posts: 84
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2005 4:22 pm

Postby Kadorak » Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:29 am

Well, how about hypothetical ships? You wouldn't need to have the ships be historical, or ever available back in the Dilgar War era. Just have a "What if" section, with possible Dilgar designs from the show or Crusade era if they had survived. I think a few years ago I saw a whole huge fan supplement for B5Wars assuming the Dilgar had conquered half the League and then settled on those worlds, and the EA had never been involved. So there were ship designs for the later eras, plus some other races' alternate designs based on that timeline - if I'm recalling right, the Shadows chose the Dilgar as their pawns, so the Centauri were on the AoL side, but the Narn were allied to the Dilgar against the Centauri, or something like that.

At worst someone could do that unofficially again for ACTA, but I don't see why there couldn't be at least a page or two of official stuff for Armageddon of hypothetical or never-built Dilgar designs. I remember in SFB (which I never played, but with my love of gaming systems I read a lot of the rulebooks for) a lot of their giant super-ships were conjectural within their own universe, planned for but never built.
Meep.
I'm a Sheep.
Paladins & Pirates unofficial supplement for ACTA - new content for Raiders and the ISA.
User avatar
H
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 6224
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:29 pm
Location: Here

Postby H » Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:49 am

However, Even the drakh don't get any armageddon ship. All the fluff says they have clam ships 40 odd kilometres long, that carry cruisers and raiders etc, they are allegedly one of the most advanced races out there. . . and they get squat in armageddon. It wouldn't even be that difficult to make, just give the mothership a higher hull and some decent weapons.
I AM RONIN!
User avatar
TenaciousB
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 519
Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:22 pm
Location: Northern Ireland

Postby TenaciousB » Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:22 am

Yellow Beard hiffano wrote:However, Even the drakh don't get any armageddon ship. All the fluff says they have clam ships 40 odd kilometres long, that carry cruisers and raiders etc, they are allegedly one of the most advanced races out there. . . and they get squat in armageddon. It wouldn't even be that difficult to make, just give the mothership a higher hull and some decent weapons.
Here, here! Well said, that man!

I thought the whole purpose of this expansion was to EXPAND for every race. Why were the Dilgar and the Drakh excluded from this? I know they are fairly new races to ACTA, but I don't see why they couldn't have got some variants of some sort.

Or is this a marketing ploy to sell another future version of the Dilgar and Drakh books?

Foil hat on standby.....
Image
an internet scifi serial from Northern Ireland
Visit The Screaming Room!
User avatar
H
Chief Mongoose
Posts: 6224
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:29 pm
Location: Here

Postby H » Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:29 am

Yellow Beard hiffano wrote:However, Even the drakh don't get any armageddon ship. All the fluff says they have clan ships 40 odd kilometres long, that carry cruisers and raiders etc, they are allegedly one of the most advanced races out there. . . and they get squat in armageddon. It wouldn't even be that difficult to make, just give the mothership a higher hull and some decent weapons.
I AM RONIN!
Lorcan Nagle
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2404
Joined: Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:46 am
Location: Ireland

Postby Lorcan Nagle » Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:49 am

Yellow Beard hiffano wrote:However, Even the drakh don't get any armageddon ship. All the fluff says they have clam ships 40 odd kilometres long, that carry cruisers and raiders etc, they are allegedly one of the most advanced races out there. . . and they get squat in armageddon. It wouldn't even be that difficult to make, just give the mothership a higher hull and some decent weapons.
A command mothership would be an interesting variant. Alternately it could be that the super large vessels are too valauable to risk in combat or aren't armed beyond simple defences
Image
User avatar
ShadowScout
Lesser Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:48 am
Location: Matzen, AUSTRIA

Postby ShadowScout » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:37 am

Ah, yes, an old song... a Dilgar Battleship. I wrote up some stats for my "Vulashkoi" a couple of years ago, during AoG times... and translated them into CtA recently.

Code: Select all

Vulashkoi Battleship
Armageddon Priority
Speed: 6   Damage: 80/18   Craft: 5 Thorun Flights
Turn: 1/45°   Crew: 90/20   Special Rules: Command +2, Jump Point
Hull: 6   Troops: 8   In Service: 2232 (Prototype)

Weapon            Range   Arc   AD   Special
Plasma Torpedoes    20     F     8   AP, Double Damage, Slow-Loading
Plasma Torpedoes    20     P     8   AP, Double Damage, Slow-Loading
Plasma Torpedoes    20     S     8   AP, Double Damage, Slow-Loading
Heavy Lasers        25     F     4   Beam, Double Damage, Super AP
Heavy Lasers        25     A     4   Beam, Double Damage, Super AP
Heavy Bolters       20     F    12   AP, Double Damage
Heavy Bolters       20     A     6   AP, Double Damage
Medium Bolters      15     P     8   AP, Double Damage
Medium Bolters      15     S     8   AP, Double Damage
Heavy Pulsars       15     F    12   -
Heavy Pulsars       15     P    12   -
Heavy Pulsars       15     S    12   -
Light Pulsars        8     F    12   -
Light Pulsars        8     A     8   -
Light Pulsars        8     P     8   -
Light Pulsars        8     S     8   -
Nasty, huh?
It has no MD's, as it is a pure ship-killer (and besides, I don't agree with Mongooses take on these things anyway. IMO MD's should be ground attack weapons only, with an exception for use against space stations, and not ship guns. Besides, considering the MD's size I wouldn't allow a ship to have one unless it's miniature has one!). I renamed the "Disruptor Torps into Plasma Torps as that better fits Dilgar weapon tech IMO. And I have it lasers, since the AoG Dilgar (which had a much better armament sceme IMO) had them. And of course, as it's bigger then the Mishakur, it's also a bit slower. Bad if you let it into range, but it has its weaknesses too...
ShadowScout
Roman A. Perner

"True understanding can be found only in the Shadow between light and dark..." - inscription on Z'ha'dum
User avatar
Voronesh
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:11 pm
Location: Heidelberg

Postby Voronesh » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:28 am

Uhh yes, but you can only fire MDs on ships that are dead in space.

Meaning theyre as easy to hit as a space station. Look thaere is that thing that flies at exactly x m/s through space in a straight line. Lets smash it?

Plus how often do you see ships dead in space. Has only happened once to me before. (Ok so i dont have that many games under my belt, but still). Well in theory it is 1 out of twelve crits, but theyre rarer than that. Dreaded luck, otherwise my Narn would have conquered more than a single Vircory by now.
"We are out of energy mines sir!"
"What? When did logistics stop supplying us?"
"2nd edition, sir."


Don't mind me, im just playing Devil's Advocate of the Shuuka.
Ripple
Duck-Billed Mongoose
Posts: 2375
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:53 pm

Postby Ripple » Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:52 am

Waaaayy more common than that around here. =(

Ripple
User avatar
Pauly_D
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1408
Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:00 pm
Location: It rains all the Time, and there are millions of Vicky Pollard Clones, Where else? Bristol, UK

Postby Pauly_D » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:37 am

i find the MD's worthless because the ships they are on are too slow, even if i do get a Speed 0 crit, any ship i have with Mass Drivers are too far away to use them
Pauly.D

One of The Five Good Men
Slightly Norse John
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 923
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:31 pm

Postby Slightly Norse John » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:51 pm

They are one of the most common items on the campaign refit table, and one of the few that are effectively cumulative. I've had an awful lot of Targrath running around with 2 and 4AD mass drivers.
They still aren't much use- the slow loading is actually more of a problem, I reckon, than the immobile target restriction. I'd sooner try to board and get the extra VP; a ship conducting a boarding action can still shoot, just not at the ship it's boarding, is the way I read it- and it's more fun.
The whole idea that Armageddon ships have to be worth about 1.8 to 1.9 a War level- that pretty much means that by definition, they're not worth taking. There should be a slightly disproportionate scaling up of the stats, to counterbalance their increased crit vulnerability and make them worth twice as much- no more, no less, in line with their cost.
As it stands, I haven't seen stats for one yet that aren't the equivalent of pouring three battle points down the drain. (Yes, I know, four. I'd expect to send four Tinashi against a Nemesis and lose one taking it down, or four Apollo against a Neroon.)
If super large vessels like Drakh motherships exist, then they do needed to be statted up- because they would make absolutely vital strategic targets. They would need stats that make them interesting rather than dam' great illstones to deploy, though.
User avatar
Voronesh
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:11 pm
Location: Heidelberg

Postby Voronesh » Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:45 am

SNJ.

My reasoning is that the war lvl ships would have to be viable still.

Same way with battle versus war. 2 Primus or 1 Octurion. 2 Tinashis or 1 Sharlin. In nearly every case 2 battle choices give you more firepower than 1 war choice.

I know what you mean about the current Arma choices barely being worth 3 battle. 2 Bin'Taks will probably burn down many of the Arma ships.

If Armageddon is worth 4.5 battle choices there would be a flood of them on the battlefield, and MGP would be accused of EElike marketing practices. Making new ships a little bit too good..... BAH.
"We are out of energy mines sir!"
"What? When did logistics stop supplying us?"
"2nd edition, sir."


Don't mind me, im just playing Devil's Advocate of the Shuuka.
Slightly Norse John
Greater Spotted Mongoose
Posts: 923
Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 3:31 pm

Postby Slightly Norse John » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:31 pm

In an odd sort of way, you have to give Mongoose credit for being masochistic enough to do the opposite;
Games Workshop make- alright, their quality's got spottier lately, but generally pretty damn' good minis, at stupid prices, and get people to buy them by inflating their game stats to the point where they seem worth it.
Mongoose are making bizarrely under- detailed minis, at even more stupid prices, and deterring people from purchasing them with their in game performance.
It is definitely a different business model.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 46 guests