Which Fleet Should Be Next?

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.

Which Fleet Should be Next?

'Thirdspace' Aliens
15
14%
Covert EA with Shadow Tech
9
8%
pak'ma'ra
32
29%
Ipsha
10
9%
Belt Alliance
10
9%
Gaim
21
19%
Orieni
13
12%
 
Total votes: 110
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Tibour
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Postby Tibour » Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:17 am

I went with the Pak'Ma'Ra. After all you already have the AOG minis. I would be happy to see the BA and the boost to the raiders as well.
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Postby JayRaider » Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:54 am

I voted Gaim, but would have voted Hyach if it had been an option! :twisted:
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Postby Target » Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:31 am

Ispha 1st
Gaim extremely close 2nd and don't really have a 3rd choice.
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Postby Destroid » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:06 am

I'd like to see the Gaim fleet, but less with the second hand ships. Pak'Ma'Ra comes in at a close second choice.
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Postby MustEatBrains » Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:35 pm

msprange wrote:
Tank wrote:I would hesitate to say that the EA has leapfrogged the Centuari or the Minbari. The EA have their own strenghts and weaknesses but I believe that they are the weaker of the major powers.
At the start of the B5 timeline, you are absolutely right. By the end of Crusade. . .
Well, by the end of Crusade, they have learned to at least implement Shadowtech with their own ships - which will ultimately fail, with the Techno Mages getting involved (Lost Tales, MoS), and Eart bombing itself back into the middle ages eventually. Besides, just because EA ships use Shadowtech to bring their battleship upt to the same level as those of middleborn races like the Minbari, doesn´t mean that the rest of their technology will be of equal quality - it takes more than just powerful ships to be powerful, and the diplomatic drawbacks alone would eventually reduce the overall effectiveness of a Shadowtech fleet, I suppose...

But ok, back to the topic: I went with the Pak´Ma´Ra, mainly because they are the one prominent legue race that still has a whole fleet of ship designs from AOG times (AND they could be using a Warbird variant, which they have used as military transport in the series). Gaim would work, too; they are definitely one of the bigger league races.

I would still love to see the Ipsha, or at least theit battle globe - I wouldn´t expect it to be easy to design more ships with the same coolness-factor, though. The Battleglobe could at least be used as a mercenary for other fleets, though.

I would also be ok with Hyach, as long as they get new ship designs - I dislike their FA ships immensely!

The Crusade era EA list is already heavily using Shadowtech (in the Marathon and Nemesis), no reason to give us yet another variant of tha!t

Or to say it shortly: I´d love to see at least one more league race next year, preferably the Pak´Ma´Ra.
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Postby chaos0xomega » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:03 pm

So I take it noone agrees with me when I say that the League races shouldn't even be given an option in this poll as they are so easy to do, and that this poll should be reserved to an independent fleet? Oh well...

Go Thirdspace?
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Postby MustEatBrains » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:35 pm

Silvereye wrote:
They have one planet, no coherent organisation and special toilets....
That´s not quite what the series says. In it, we hear of at least one Pak agricultural colony, and there´s talk about invasipn of Pak space, too (either by the Shadows or the Centauri - or both?). Couldn´be much of a space with only one planet, could it?

Of course, in the series their homeworld is also called "Pak´Ma"...
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Mr. T about the pak´ma´ra: "I pity the food!"

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"You know what Narns taste like?" "Yeah, chicken..."
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Postby Nightmares about Minbari » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:49 pm

@Chaosomega: Given that there is demand for additional ships for the rest of the league races as well, a fleet book that detailed a fifth league race (preferrably the Gaim), as well as additional ships for the other races, would be an excellent product for next year.

If the Gaim do get done, hope they get new and original ship designs rather than just other peoples hand me downs.
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Postby Silvereye » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:07 pm

MustEatBrains wrote:That´s not quite what the series says. In it, we hear of at least one Pak agricultural colony, and there´s talk about invasipn of Pak space, too (either by the Shadows or the Centauri - or both?). Couldn´be much of a space with only one planet, could it?

Of course, in the series their homeworld is also called "Pak´Ma"...
From the B5 Galactic guide the Pak'ma'ra homeworld is in the Melat system, the description mentions the Pak'ma'ra homeworld (Melat II) and 2 Major and 4 Minor orbital colonies, so it could be their entire system was under attack as a whole. Given that the Pak'ma'ra are big into trading, and along with the Vree probably handle most of the League's goods at some point or other, shutting down the Pak'ma'ra would probably be a good thing from the Shadows/Centauri point of view.

Of course the Gaim only have one world too, but they have about 10 Billion more inhabitants. But they went from barbarism to space age tech after the Narn invasion....

Still, I'd rather have a hive minded type fleet, rather than one based on waky plumbing.
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Postby MustEatBrains » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:11 pm

Silvereye wrote:
MustEatBrains wrote:That´s not quite what the series says. In it, we hear of at least one Pak agricultural colony, and there´s talk about invasipn of Pak space, too (either by the Shadows or the Centauri - or both?). Couldn´be much of a space with only one planet, could it?

Of course, in the series their homeworld is also called "Pak´Ma"...
From the B5 Galactic guide the Pak'ma'ra homeworld is in the Melat system, the description mentions the Pak'ma'ra homeworld (Melat II) and 2 Major and 4 Minor orbital colonies, so it could be their entire system was under attack as a whole. Given that the Pak'ma'ra are big into trading, and along with the Vree probably handle most of the League's goods at some point or other, shutting down the Pak'ma'ra would probably be a good thing from the Shadows/Centauri point of view.

Of course the Gaim only have one world too, but they have about 10 Billion more inhabitants. But they went from barbarism to space age tech after the Narn invasion....

Still, I'd rather have a hive minded type fleet, rather than one based on waky plumbing.
Does the Galactic Guide say anything about the proximity between the agricultural colony and Abbai space? Never been able to take a look into the book myself; maybe I should put it on my wishlist! :)

A Hivemind is nice, but Paks have tentacles as a mouth - tentacles are cool! I like tentacles! Oh, and they have humps, too! Gaim only have antennae... (ok, not much of an argument, but it´s getting late...)
pak´ma´ra chosen of god - very special!

Mr. T about the pak´ma´ra: "I pity the food!"

"Of course I like reporters - properly cooked!" - typical pak´ma´ra humour

"You know what Narns taste like?" "Yeah, chicken..."
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Postby Silvereye » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:48 pm

The Abbai and The Pak'ma'ra are pretty much seperated by the Drazi Freeholds. Quite a large area of space (about as large as the Narns territory).
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Postby Dennbok » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:49 pm

Gaim for me - though I'm all up for more league races generally. I do like the idea of the Covert EA, but have to agree that they're perhaps getting too many new toys.
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Postby Voronesh » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:24 pm

It is actually kinda funny, that the race with the typing error gets the most votes. But i dig em.

Plus i dont think thirdspace aliens should be ever in. Yes so i field this one cruiser.....youre dead?

Even though covert EA seems fun, I think that the EA can rest for a while, and let a few LONAW come to the action, before they get anything new.
By all means theres 3 EA now......

Id prefer the redarmored alines from seasons5
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Postby MustEatBrains » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:24 pm

Silvereye wrote:The Abbai and The Pak'ma'ra are pretty much seperated by the Drazi Freeholds. Quite a large area of space (about as large as the Narns territory).
Ah, I see. I remember that in the series, the Abbai wanted to join the ISA if they got help with a food problem on their homeworld; Sheridan said that there was a Pak´Ma´Ra agricultural colony that could help only 2 (or a few) jumps from Abbai territory, which produces more food than the Paks needed. So, it really looks like the Pak space was considered to be quite bigger in the series than the common non-series sources would have it.

Now, I don´t mean to play "Mr. Knowitall"; I just want to say that the Paks in the series are not how they were described by AOG (AOG also said that they had no religion f.ex.; the series also contradicts this on two occasions); and since many of the arguments against a Pak fleet are based on B5W lore (or works based on it), I wouldn´t consider them valid enough to stand in the way of a Pak´Ma´Ra fleet book...
pak´ma´ra chosen of god - very special!

Mr. T about the pak´ma´ra: "I pity the food!"

"Of course I like reporters - properly cooked!" - typical pak´ma´ra humour

"You know what Narns taste like?" "Yeah, chicken..."
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Postby Voronesh » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:27 pm

Actually it makes sense that the Paks own a big area of space. They are carrion eaters after all, and dont seem to have a drive for the best stuff. So probably they will have many planets that were discarded uninhabitble or not sustainable at least.
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Postby MustEatBrains » Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:39 pm

Voronesh wrote:Actually it makes sense that the Paks own a big area of space. They are carrion eaters after all, and dont seem to have a drive for the best stuff. So probably they will have many planets that were discarded uninhabitble or not sustainable at least.
That sounds cool! I like this idea that they do not only scavenge bodies and ships, but also whole planets... 8)
pak´ma´ra chosen of god - very special!

Mr. T about the pak´ma´ra: "I pity the food!"

"Of course I like reporters - properly cooked!" - typical pak´ma´ra humour

"You know what Narns taste like?" "Yeah, chicken..."
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Postby Rynar » Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:39 pm

Tentacled, squidy, carrioneaters with loads of plasma weapons for me!!!! 8)
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Postby ShadowScout » Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:44 am

Vote with comments:

1 - Ipsha
Would be a really nice addition to the B5 fleets. Not too hard to do either.

2 - Pak'ma'ra
Need a fleet too. I heard rumours about redesign... no problem with it, Pak ships could be done as "armed transports" instead of purpose-buiolt warships... as long as they are still a small step better then the raiders (who are supposed to have basically civilian hulls with jury-rigged weapons systems)

3 - Gaim
Hmmm... the AoG Gaim had no hulls of their own, something I never really liked. I myself converted some "Noble Armadas" and "Silent Death" ships into Gaim vessels for my campaign... but Mongoose could do better I think!

4 - Belt Alliance
An alternative human fleet is always a good thing, especially since these hulls can also be sold to allied powers like the Sh'lassen triumvirate, and of course the Mars Defence Force...

X - Orieni
Only once Mongoose makes historical Centauri too!

Y - 'Thirdspace' Aliens
Ditto, but with "other Ancients" instead.

Z - Covert EA with Shadow Tech
NOOO! No more of this!! EA does NOT need more whacky ships!!!

[Rant]
In that matter who the hell had the idea that EA "shady" ships ought to get more powerful weapons then true ShadowShips anyway?!?

Look in the Armageddon Supplement:
EA ShadOmega has a Slicer Beam with range 40, ditto for the Nemesis. The ShadowCruiser on the other hand has only a range of 18... and the Hunter only 15! The extra "Precise" of those guns is nice, but can't balance the range difference... and what's worse, there is no reason at all why the Shadows should give an lesser allied race guns with twice the range of their own ships! It frankly goes against every logical thought that something like this could happen!

Now, I can understand that the guns on the EA shady ships need the range, otherwise they'd be worse then Lasers. But I cannot understand why the Shadows thenselves ought to be stuck with myopic guns! I mean, just because they often close to short range in the show (because it "looked better" according tho those with the money) that shouldn't mean they can't fire at longer ranges - just that they for some reason like to close (probably to ensure their targets quick destruction)

Personally I would have given the ShadowShips a Slicer Beam that had the same 40 range, but gained extra 1AD for every 5 below maximum range (for the cruiser: 8AD at 40, 9AD at 35, 10AD at 30, 11AD at 25; et cetera...). That would have given ShadowShips a good reason to close (who wouldn't like more AD after all?), while remaining completely logical. Oh, and it would have made them a good deal more dangerous, something a race with technology millions of years ahead should be.

Oh, and of course -I- wouldn't have gioven the ShadOmega or Nemesis Slicer Beams at all. It was a mistake in AoG's day, and it is a mistake now, as clear as purple-violet isn't cyan-blue. In my universe these merely "shady" ships have "Multiphased Beams" and that is that. No problem, no fuss, no power-mad munchkin gamer imagining more younger race ships with shady guns (Yeah, after AoG released the ShadOmega, homegrown shady ships started popping up... over-powered and mostly under-pointed abominations that will hopefully stay buried...)

[/Rant]
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Postby captainsmirk » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:59 pm

Whilst I voted for the Gaim I would have some reservations about how they were handled.

I would have no problem with abandoning the second hand fleet thing.

However I would avoid giving them organic tech, that always seemed to be a First One thing. Also I see no evidence for them using organic tech beyond the (innate, natural) ability of the Queens to modify the DNA of their subjects. Just look at the Gaim ambassadors, they all wear an obviously mechanical environment suit, no organic tech there.

Just my thoughts...

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Postby emperorpenguin » Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:03 pm

ShadowScout wrote: X - Orieni
Only once Mongoose makes historical Centauri too!
A lot of the Centauri ships from B5 were in use then, just in earlier forms. The Primus debuted during the Orieni war for example

Early versions of the centurion were used to i think
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