10 Sagg fleet, Mythbusted?

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Reaverman
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Postby Reaverman » Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:02 pm

prelude_to_war wrote:
Nightmares about Minbari wrote:Also, sure there wouldn't be any point going to this much trouble to 'fake' a myth bust, which seams to be what someone was implying...
I don't think it was faked, rather the Sag fleet doesn't seem like it was played to the best of its ability. If done so, I think it will regularly come out against any opponent.

Next time the Sag emphasis should be placed on outmaneuvering the lone vorlon ship (after the destroyer is taken out) so it cannot fire back - or at least is very limited in its choice of available targets. Seeing all the Sags in the forward arc of the Cruiser just looks too good to be true from the Vorlon player's perspective. Trust me :wink:
No matter where you put them, the Vorlon wins. The Vorlon kills 4 saggs, and jumps off the Table. Its a Victory everytime for the Vorlons, the Math favours the Vorlon. You would have to do 400 points of damage over 3-4 turns. If you have not, the Vorlon wins in turn 4 or 5
Last edited by Reaverman on Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Chernobyl » Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:03 pm

Try it again, but give the Sag's Flash missiles instead. I'm sure the varaible missiles will be back in the tournament mix come armageddon.

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Postby Reaverman » Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:04 pm

Chernobyl wrote:Try it again, but give the Sag's Flash missiles instead. I'm sure the varaible missiles will be back in the tournament mix come armageddon.

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Postby Geekybiker » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:05 pm

Reaverman wrote: No matter where you put them, the Vorlon wins. The Vorlon kills 4 saggs, and jumps off the Table. Its a Victory everytime for the Vorlons, the Math favours the Vorlon. You would have 400 points of damage over 3-4 turns. If you have not, the Vorlon wins in turn 4 or 5
Sure, if you're happy with 13/7 splits regularly. However if you want to win tournaments, not battles you'll need to do better than that all the time.
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Postby Locutus9956 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:07 pm

yeeers but in Armageddon as I understand it the ancinets will also be somewhat different too (and I suspect so will the sag anyway (or at least back to its SFoS version)
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Postby Reaverman » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:12 pm

Geekybiker wrote:
Reaverman wrote: No matter where you put them, the Vorlon wins. The Vorlon kills 4 saggs, and jumps off the Table. Its a Victory everytime for the Vorlons, the Math favours the Vorlon. You would have 400 points of damage over 3-4 turns. If you have not, the Vorlon wins in turn 4 or 5
Sure, if you're happy with 13/7 splits regularly. However if you want to win tournaments, not battles you'll need to do better than that all the time.
Vs a 10 Sag fleet, 13-7 is better than a 20-0 loss, go figure :)

Plus, it means with the Swiss system the Sag player might not have won it
Last edited by Reaverman on Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Chewy » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:13 pm

I've tried many different fleets in test skirmishes against the 10 Sag fleet combo and was also able to defeat it fielding both Shadow and Vorlon fleets also but only because these races ignore crits. With the Shadows I prevailed with the 2 Shadow Hunter 1 Scout fleet and it was a typical slugfest. With the Vorlons I fielded the same fleet you did Reaver, though once I had obtained enough VP's to win the scenario I just jumped out instead of fighting the entire slugfest. I pretty much decided the Vorlons could win virtually everytime with that strategy against most any fleet.

Nice battle report guys,


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Postby Reaverman » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:20 pm

Chewy wrote:I've tried many different fleets in test skirmishes against the 10 Sag fleet combo and was also able to defeat it fielding both Shadow and Vorlon fleets also but only because these races ignore crits. With the Shadows I prevailed with the 2 Shadow Hunter 1 Scout fleet and it was a typical slugfest. With the Vorlons I fielded the same fleet you did Reaver, though once I had obtained enough VP's to win the scenario I just jumped out instead of fighting the entire slugfest. I pretty much decided the Vorlons could win virtually everytime with that strategy against most any fleet.

Nice battle report guys,


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Thanks chewy, for the compliment and also confirming the results :)
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Postby Chewy » Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:25 pm

Reaverman I agree 100% with your assessment. The percentages show the Vorlon player should win most of the time, no matter how the Sag player arranges his fleet.

What your battle effectively illustrated is that the reason why the 10 Sag fleet is so deadly is its ability to fire lots of precise AD each round, whether in close or at long range and still be able to take alot of damage in return fire. The ancients (Shadows & Vorlons) ability to ignore crits effectively takes this huge advantage this fleet has against the lesser races away. Its amazing that even with that huge advantage negated the EA fleet still almost wins.

Hash, you are officially nominated to publish more battle reports. I know it had to be tedious for you, but you did a great job and it was a good read!


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Postby captainsmirk » Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:49 pm

Surely the way to prove that the fleet was truley unbeatable would be if it was played by someone with little skill/experience against a much more skillful/experienced opponent.
If it still wins then it is unbeatable...
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Postby mthomason » Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:53 pm

captainsmirk wrote:Surely the way to prove that the fleet was truley unbeatable would be if it was played by someone with little skill/experience against a much more skillful/experienced opponent.
If it still wins then it is unbeatable...
But maybe they just couldn't find LBH?
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Postby Reaverman » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:14 pm

captainsmirk wrote:Surely the way to prove that the fleet was truley unbeatable would be if it was played by someone with little skill/experience against a much more skillful/experienced opponent.
If it still wins then it is unbeatable...
No, becuase thats like saying lets measure Chelsea, against Aldershot town to prove how good Chelsea are
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Postby Lord David the Denied » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:16 pm

No it's not. It's like putting an Army Cadet in a Challenger II and giving him a Mk. 1 Tank to shoot at crewed by a veteran tank officer...
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Postby Reaverman » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:18 pm

Lord David the Denied wrote:No it's not. It's like putting an Army Cadet in a Challenger II and giving him a Mk. 1 Tank to shoot at crewed by a veteran tank officer...
no matter what analogy you use, its the same really....you are sqewing the results
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Postby Locutus9956 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:27 pm

yes you are skewing the results but if you are skewing them AGAINST the Sagg fleet (as would be the case) and it still wins every (or almost every) time something is obviously up.

The equivalent of your football annalogy would be saying lets prove how broken the sag fleet is by facing it off against 5 Tethys. Of course that proves nothing but if you took the Sag fleet and squared it off against 30 Shadow Ships and it won then you could hardly say 'oh that doesnt prove its broken cos you skewed the results'.

(And before anyone says it, yes of course thats a collossaly exaggerated example)

If the fleet can win even an 'unfair fight' most of the time then (unfair in the opponents favour) then it probably needs looking at.

The suggestion is in fact more like getting Aldershot Town to play Chelsea to prove how got Aldershot is.

Now if Aldershot won the game would you not agree that that is some measure of proof that theyre much better than their divisional standings would suggest?
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Postby Reaverman » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:39 pm

For that game, yes :)
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Postby lastbesthope » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:40 pm

mthomason wrote:
captainsmirk wrote:Surely the way to prove that the fleet was truley unbeatable would be if it was played by someone with little skill/experience against a much more skillful/experienced opponent.
If it still wins then it is unbeatable...
But maybe they just couldn't find LBH?
If anyone can prove that White Stars aren't unbeatable it's me.

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Postby Reaverman » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:42 pm

lastbesthope wrote:
mthomason wrote:
captainsmirk wrote:Surely the way to prove that the fleet was truley unbeatable would be if it was played by someone with little skill/experience against a much more skillful/experienced opponent.
If it still wins then it is unbeatable...
But maybe they just couldn't find LBH?
If anyone can prove that White Stars aren't unbeatable it's me.

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Postby Locutus9956 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:43 pm

erm last ruling I saw, you COULD dodge exploding ships. You cant intercept them though :P
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Postby Burger » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:45 pm

OK people. Some complaints about my Sag playing eh? Well I've never played them before, but I thought I did pretty well. One or two small mistakes but nothing major IMO.

Deployment. I deployed all straight for a reason. The Vorlon won initiative on deployment... if I had deployed my Sag's at an angle, he would've deployed in the opposite corner.... meaning I'd have to do a come about roll on turn 1 to get broadsides on. Pointing straight, wherever he deploys, I can either turn 45 degrees left or right to get a broadside. Which is what I did. I took a risk, guessing how many broadsides it would take to kill the destroyer... as it happens I underestimated a bit (and rolled a bit badly), 1 more should have done it. But, *all* of the Sag's got to fire their broadsides on turn 1 (apart from 1 which was about 1 degree out, curse my dodgy eyesight, or did Reaverman nudge the table :P). I'd say thats a successful deployment.

As for outmanouvering... well the Sag has 6" movement, not 20". And the Vorlon main weapon has 24" range. Look at the photos of turns 1 and 2, tell me how could I have got out of his arcs? In turns 4, 5 and 6 you see that some have got out of arc. But before then, it was simply impossible. Sag's simply don't have the speed or turns to get out of arc.

And yes, to be called an "unbeatable" fleet, the Sag fleet played to an "average" level should be able to beat the Vorlon. So... MYTH BUSTED.

And yes, more fleets will face the Sag fleet of doom at a later date!
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