Jump Point Bombs

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.

Are Jump Point Bombs Cheesey?

Heck No, they're fair and flavorful! Advanced Races Rule!
16
30%
Swiss & Brie; It's a cheap tactic - should be banned.
15
28%
Has it's place, but may need to be re-thought.
22
42%
 
Total votes: 53
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animus
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Postby animus » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:44 pm

I think that Starfuries move at the speed of plot and the Jump Point Bomb was as effective as it needed to be. However, I think it really has some holes in it. I've been yelling about it being used on stations and others have finally picked up on it.

I just finished watching the first several seasons again and jump points are always detected. I think the bomb in the 2 instances it was used were abhorations, mistakes in the B5 universe, a plot device because JMS didn't have a nuke handy.

I have no problem with dropping in anywhere you want to, but the bomb isn't good. I can see appearing and shooting on the first turn it appears etc long before I'll like the idea of opening a jump point just to do the damage. It's a door, not the doomsday device. Think of a couple squads of shadow fighters opening jump points in the Zocolo until B5 is out of atmosphere or explodes.

I think the game would work just peachy without this rule. Widen the power of the ship entereing from an Advanced Point, give the Vorlons some love, but 6AD TD per point isn't good. If I were a general, I'd use no other weapon and never lose a battle.
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Postby emperorpenguin » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:48 pm

animus wrote:Think of a couple squads of shadow fighters opening jump points in the Zocolo until B5 is out of atmosphere or explodes.
err shadows don't open jump points! :roll:


and I disagree, opening a jump point on a space station would inflict a lot of damage, Ivanova yells "that's practically on top of us!" when the centauri cruiser jumps in during "ANFAW", so if she was panicked then it must be because the station would take damage should the jump point be too close...
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Postby nekomata fuyu » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:58 pm

emperorpenguin wrote:and I disagree, opening a jump point on a space station would inflict a lot of damage, Ivanova yells "that's practically on top of us!" when the centauri cruiser jumps in during "ANFAW", so if she was panicked then it must be because the station would take damage should the jump point be too close...
I'd be panicked at the prospect of an opponent jumping in and unloading on me at point blank range too...
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Postby animus » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:01 pm

emperorpenguin wrote:
animus wrote:Think of a couple squads of shadow fighters opening jump points in the Zocolo until B5 is out of atmosphere or explodes.
err shadows don't open jump points! :roll:
D'0h!!!! :oops: Yes, okay..... Somebody else who doesn't like B5 then... another bad guy, say Klingons, er.... Cylons or something.... you get my point.


Ivanova sounded more concerned with a ram/crash scenario rather than a Jump Point Bomb.
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Postby emperorpenguin » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:03 pm

animus wrote:Ivanova sounded more concerned with a ram/crash scenario rather than a Jump Point Bomb.
that's your opinion/guess, we can't know for certain.
but we see clearly in "ITB" that jump points DO indeed inflict massive damage
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Postby animus » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:16 pm

emperorpenguin wrote:
animus wrote:Ivanova sounded more concerned with a ram/crash scenario rather than a Jump Point Bomb.
that's your opinion/guess, we can't know for certain.
but we see clearly in "ITB" that jump points DO indeed inflict massive damage
Well yes, Ivanova is a fictional character. I can't really speak for her. I'll just remind you that the jump point bomb may have been a plot device that doesn't make a lot of sense in the bigger picture.
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Postby emperorpenguin » Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:18 pm

animus wrote:Well yes, Ivanova is a fictional character. I can't really speak for her. I'll just remind you that the jump point bomb may have been a plot device that doesn't make a lot of sense in the bigger picture.
so could energy mines, we only see them once. should they be removed?

the White Star was a "plot device" to allow the characters off station to do more, so what!
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Re: If

Postby lastbesthope » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:57 pm

Elessar wrote:
Why would the Minbari assault earth when they could just open jump gates over their major cities
Perhaps they will have done that. Who told you they weren't preparing that ? Damned crazy Minbaris ! :wink:
Well as was pointed out in "ENdgame" you can't open an atmospheric jump point that close to the surface without accurate positioning information. The kind you need people on the ground to provide. People who don't get Latitude and Longitude mixed up.

:lol:

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Postby animus » Wed Apr 19, 2006 9:22 pm

emperorpenguin wrote:
animus wrote:Well yes, Ivanova is a fictional character. I can't really speak for her. I'll just remind you that the jump point bomb may have been a plot device that doesn't make a lot of sense in the bigger picture.
so could energy mines, we only see them once. should they be removed?

the White Star was a "plot device" to allow the characters off station to do more, so what!
Lets not get in a fight here. :shock:

I just think that the jump point bomb kinda breaks some of the universe, if you know what I mean. They worked a certain way in the times we saw them, but they weren't used that way at many other times when it would have been beneficial to do so. We, the players, the table-top generals, see these other uses and can thus abuse them, not to further an excellent plot, but to crush our enemies with a questionable tactic.
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Postby Dag'Nabbit » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:37 pm

No tactic is questionable if it works. That being said, the JPB is not necessarily an overpowering effect. Certain ships would be well advised to never use them as it would keep said ship at dangerously close ranges to the enemy. Others, like the white star, are nimble enough to use them to damage ships (maybe), shoot said ships, and then get away. I've used them, both effectively and not, and I've had them used against me to varying degrees of success. They are just another factor to the game. If you play low hull ships against someone with AJP and are worried then spread your ships out so very few get hit; only bring your ships in close when you need them to strike at a target.
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Postby animus » Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:58 pm

I'm not convinced the rule is broken in the game, I think it's broken in the universe. How could any space station survive a JPB attack?
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Postby Dag'Nabbit » Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:49 am

If you don't like it then house rule that JP's can not be formed within a certain distance of stations. Maybe the mass shadow of a structure that large keeps the points from forming.
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Postby l33tpenguin » Thu Apr 20, 2006 12:40 pm

Dag'Nabbit wrote:If you don't like it then house rule that JP's can not be formed within a certain distance of stations. Maybe the mass shadow of a structure that large keeps the points from forming.
So what does mars count as?

I wish this game was played on hexes if only for being able to pre-target a hex for AJP bombing. this would provide a good rule to reflect how jump points are used to hit ships in the show.

To amend to that, I hate hexes... so if a better way of pre determining a target were avalibile, I would use it. I can easily see this acceptable in tournaments because you can have someone else avalible to tell before hand.

Also, If there was said rule, there would also be a rule to allow ships held in hyperspace with AJP to jump in as normal, only they don't actually inflict damage for doing so. They may be jumping in close, but because the location wasn't predetermined, it isn't actually close enough to do harm.

I think the main reason jump points aren't typically used as weapons in B5 is A: the required information to open on accurately and B: To my knowledge, only ONCE did a ship ever open a jump point that it didn't use, and NEVER was a jump point opened from hyperspace to real space and not used. So, it is usually assumed that a jump point, once opened, has to be used. Its traditionally a bad idea to jump a cruiser into the center of a space station...

If all else, it boils down to a plot device. But, like everything else we are using, they are all plot devices that have been molded into the shape of a game to reflect the universe in which those devices were used. And as such, like minbari souls, by removing one, you would make the whole weaker.
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Postby nekomata fuyu » Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:32 pm

l33tpenguin wrote:I wish this game was played on hexes if only for being able to pre-target a hex for AJP bombing. this would provide a good rule to reflect how jump points are used to hit ships in the show.

To amend to that, I hate hexes... so if a better way of pre determining a target were avalibile, I would use it. I can easily see this acceptable in tournaments because you can have someone else avalible to tell before hand.
Pregame, specify one edge of the board to be "North", and then you can plot any location on the board as coordinates such as '26"N 15"E', measuring from the SW corner.
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Postby l33tpenguin » Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:43 pm

neko wrote:
l33tpenguin wrote:I wish this game was played on hexes if only for being able to pre-target a hex for AJP bombing. this would provide a good rule to reflect how jump points are used to hit ships in the show.

To amend to that, I hate hexes... so if a better way of pre determining a target were avalibile, I would use it. I can easily see this acceptable in tournaments because you can have someone else avalible to tell before hand.
Pregame, specify one edge of the board to be "North", and then you can plot any location on the board as coordinates such as '26"N 15"E', measuring from the SW corner.
I *think* something like this would work, allowing a variable of 1-2 inches so there is a little leeway.

The only problem I could foresee is that jumping in on a fleet at a pre determined location that might be between move points. AJP bombing would have to come immediatly after all ships have moved and effect any ship that passed within 2 inches of the location where the jump point opened.

I understand how the mechanic for this would work, only think it would end up becoming rather complicated and cause arguements between players.
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Postby Locutus9956 » Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:08 pm

How about this, much simpler idea. Declare ship is jumping in, place JP counter.

Now currently you cant come in the turn the jp forms so must wait a turn how about instead, you dont take damage until the jp is formed (ie you get the chance to move out of the way while the jp is forming (the turn the counter is placed) and then at the start of the next turn anything withing the arc takes damage as the point forms (and ships can jump in straight after this.

Might work a little better (though I dont have a problem with how it works currently anyway, but to each their own)
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Postby Dag'Nabbit » Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:49 pm

Here's a reason I just thought of why no one ever jumps right on top of a station: (it ain't allowable by the rules though, but could prove an interesting exception) If a ship jumps out close enough to a station to harm it then the station is able to use multiple 'target' arcs of fire on said ship.

Yes, this has lots of problems with it, but it would certainly explain why captains choose not to get so close with their jump points.
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Postby l33tpenguin » Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:02 pm

Dag'Nabbit wrote:Here's a reason I just thought of why no one ever jumps right on top of a station: (it ain't allowable by the rules though, but could prove an interesting exception) If a ship jumps out close enough to a station to harm it then the station is able to use multiple 'target' arcs of fire on said ship.

Yes, this has lots of problems with it, but it would certainly explain why captains choose not to get so close with their jump points.
The idea here, however, is leaving a ship in hyperspace and opening a jump point over and over and over....
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Postby Dag'Nabbit » Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:16 pm

Just remember your recharge time.
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Postby l33tpenguin » Thu Apr 20, 2006 7:27 pm

three ships in hyperspace bombing a station = ouchies

Just curious, I have yet to actually play with stations. You can hit them with mass drivers, correct?

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