Jump Point Bombs

Discuss Mongoose miniatures game here, including Mighty Armies, Gangs of Mega-City One, and Battlefield Evolution.

Are Jump Point Bombs Cheesey?

Heck No, they're fair and flavorful! Advanced Races Rule!
16
30%
Swiss & Brie; It's a cheap tactic - should be banned.
15
28%
Has it's place, but may need to be re-thought.
22
42%
 
Total votes: 53
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Postby l33tpenguin » Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:28 pm

animus wrote:The movies took liberties which didn't always mesh with the rest of the show.

I still think that the Bomb is just too powerful against a space station. How could anyone survive a fleet thus bombing them without even presenting a target? There has to be some way around it.

Maybe the Beginning attack had something to do with Earth's limited technology. More advance races could defend against it.
This is the reason I think there should be a fix to the AJP rule to allow targetting a fleet. A jump point should A: inflict more damage and B: have its location secretly declaired PRIOR to the fight. Remember, the minbari flyer had to lure the earth ships to where it wanted them. Only then did that black star jump in and inflict the damage.

The only other time a ship uses pinpoint coordinates is when the white star jumps into mars. And in that situation, they were feeding specific, up to the second coordinates for the white star to jump in on.

Both these examples go to show that pin pointing a jump point target cannot be done on the fly. In the first example, the location was predetermined and the fleet had to be brought to the trap. In the second, the jumping ship was being relayed exact coordinates from the exact location of the jump. I don't think 'on the fly' AJP hits would be possible because of the specific up to date needs required.
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Postby Triggy » Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:30 pm

l33tpenguin wrote:
animus wrote:The movies took liberties which didn't always mesh with the rest of the show.

I still think that the Bomb is just too powerful against a space station. How could anyone survive a fleet thus bombing them without even presenting a target? There has to be some way around it.

Maybe the Beginning attack had something to do with Earth's limited technology. More advance races could defend against it.
This is the reason I think there should be a fix to the AJP rule to allow targetting a fleet. A jump point should A: inflict more damage and B: have its location secretly declaired PRIOR to the fight. Remember, the minbari flyer had to lure the earth ships to where it wanted them. Only then did that black star jump in and inflict the damage.

The only other time a ship uses pinpoint coordinates is when the white star jumps into mars. And in that situation, they were feeding specific, up to the second coordinates for the white star to jump in on.

Both these examples go to show that pin pointing a jump point target cannot be done on the fly. In the first example, the location was predetermined and the fleet had to be brought to the trap. In the second, the jumping ship was being relayed exact coordinates from the exact location of the jump. I don't think 'on the fly' AJP hits would be possible because of the specific up to date needs required.
I second that sentiment.

Prior to the battle choosing a location may be a little impractical, I prefer the much simpler "all jump points scatter" approach.
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Postby Dag'Nabbit » Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:49 am

What about the coordination of the Shadow Omegas when they jump in to ambush Ivanova's White Star Fleet? That seemed pretty coordinated and adjusted to where the White Stars were. (Though I don't know how they recieved the signal that told them Ivanova was there)
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Postby l33tpenguin » Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:59 am

You know that is THE one episode I've never seen? Never ever ever?! It makes me sad. oh well. Once I'm doing watching season 3 with my girlfriend, I'm getting season 4. I've seen stills of it, have even made a shadow omega in Lightwave.

Well, until I see it, I can't give an expert opinion, but you could consider that the Shadow Omegas HAD shadow technology and thus might have had far better targetting systems enabling them to jump far closer.

The shadows would be the only race I would consider giving the ability to actually jump into any point on the map at will. of course, they don't use JPs and thus cant JP bomb

Also, consider it is one thing to jump near enough to open fire on a fleet. its another to jump right into the middle of a fleet so that your JP tares it apart.

I think changing the game mechanic where A: Jump points are far more devistating. B: Having the coordinates pre assigned. this would be easier on a hex board, but I loath hexes... as long as the game board is square, giving vertical/horizontal measurements would work well enough.

The idea of having to herd an enemy fleet to where you want them seems like a fun idea to me as well.

I'm also aware of the limitations and difficulty in this idea :P
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Postby demonllamma » Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:35 am

I like the idea (don't remember exactly whose it was) of deviating 2d6 for JP and 1d6 for AJP while subtracting cq. Poor rolls could screw you up. Makes sense to me.

The one big argument fluff-wise for disallowing precision AJPing has a problem though. If the exceptions are in conditions of direct information feeds. There are ships there....couldn't they do it. How about an opposed CQ check between scouts, +1 for each vessel with the ability. If one side doesn't have any, they lose automatically. If the incoming player loses, he scatters as above (or just a flat d6). The scouts would actually be scouting then. :lol:

One other thing, as for continuity in the show/movies/whatever else, MJS stated once in an interview when asked the speed of a starfury that they moved "at the speed of plot," noting that if they needed to be able to get to X they would be able to. If the storyline required them to be 3.4 minutes late, they would be. Continuity is a bit moot at that.
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Postby l33tpenguin » Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:34 pm

demonllamma wrote:I like the idea (don't remember exactly whose it was) of deviating 2d6 for JP and 1d6 for AJP while subtracting cq. Poor rolls could screw you up. Makes sense to me.

The one big argument fluff-wise for disallowing precision AJPing has a problem though. If the exceptions are in conditions of direct information feeds. There are ships there....couldn't they do it. How about an opposed CQ check between scouts, +1 for each vessel with the ability. If one side doesn't have any, they lose automatically. If the incoming player loses, he scatters as above (or just a flat d6). The scouts would actually be scouting then. :lol:
The idea is, you need up to date information from a point almost exactly where you will be jumping in, unless you have a predetermined location. If they could have just targeted a spot on mars from orbit for jumping in, I think they would have, instead there was a team risking life and limb to be right under the location, nearly getting run over when the white star did jump in.
One other thing, as for continuity in the show/movies/whatever else, MJS stated once in an interview when asked the speed of a starfury that they moved "at the speed of plot," noting that if they needed to be able to get to X they would be able to. If the storyline required them to be 3.4 minutes late, they would be. Continuity is a bit moot at that.
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Postby kingmt » Sun Apr 16, 2006 12:41 am

Something that I came up with and was modified a little bit in my group and still be tested.

JP: scatter 2D6, movement is straight line only, no firing, no Special Actions - although fighter launch is still permitted
AJP: scatter 2D6, standard movement, normal firing, no Special Actions - although fighter launch is still permitted

To open a jump point at a specific point a spotter must:
a) be within 8"
b) pass a CQ check at a 9 to send the correct coordinates

The ship jumping in must pass a CQ check of 10 if it has an AJP or and 11 if it has a JP to reduce its scatter by 1D6. So this makes a AJP ship able to make pinpoint jumps and JP ships get more accurate jumps.

This mimics closely what was seen in the show, in both instances there was either a spotter feeding coordinates (Garibaldi on Mars) or a ship luring a fleet to a pre-determined location and sending a "jump now" signal (flyer leading the fleet into the Drala'fi ambush)

The CQ numbers are deliberatly above average for military crews to make if difficult but not impossible, in both the Mars and Drala'fi examples the crews were at least Veteran, if not Elite.

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Postby Mr. Eddy » Sun Apr 16, 2006 1:00 am

makes a lot more sense, takes the cheese out and puts the fun in!
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Postby Locutus9956 » Sun Apr 16, 2006 7:52 am

Triggy wrote: The trouble here is that Drazi have Hull 6 ships almost across the board and AJP does the most damage where it's attacking Hull 5 (or even 4) ships. In the tourney my mate Ben opened two White Star jump points on a Brakiri fleet and destroyed 40% of the fleet (points wise) before his opponent even moved his second ship!

I think as simple a change as having AJPs scatter 2d6 (same as regular jump points) would keep it as a possible tactic but certainly one where the risks are significant compared to the possible benefits.
I should point out that I specifically stated I was jumping in on top of DARK HAWKS. Theyre missile cruisers and have only hull 5. I really do think people overreact to things a bit on these forums at times.

Any rule or weapon or ship that seems effective is automatically deemed broken (stealth, whitestats, original emines, ajps, scouts etc etc) and anything that seems weak in any area is deemed underpowered and useless (Posseidon supercarriers, fighters, Ancients and so on).

Now I dont want to sound like a hypocrite as I know Ive had my say on some of the topics above too but I dont believe I have every said that anythign was outright broken (Stealth could do with tweaking and ancients could use a slight boost (especially the Vorlons) but other than that I think the system is pretty good as is. I certainly dont think we need a major rules rewrite in any area.
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Postby Triggy » Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:05 am

kingmt wrote:Something that I came up with and was modified a little bit in my group and still be tested.

JP: scatter 2D6, movement is straight line only, no firing, no Special Actions - although fighter launch is still permitted
AJP: scatter 2D6, standard movement, normal firing, no Special Actions - although fighter launch is still permitted

To open a jump point at a specific point a spotter must:
a) be within 8"
b) pass a CQ check at a 9 to send the correct coordinates

The ship jumping in must pass a CQ check of 10 if it has an AJP or and 11 if it has a JP to reduce its scatter by 1D6. So this makes a AJP ship able to make pinpoint jumps and JP ships get more accurate jumps.

This mimics closely what was seen in the show, in both instances there was either a spotter feeding coordinates (Garibaldi on Mars) or a ship luring a fleet to a pre-determined location and sending a "jump now" signal (flyer leading the fleet into the Drala'fi ambush)

The CQ numbers are deliberatly above average for military crews to make if difficult but not impossible, in both the Mars and Drala'fi examples the crews were at least Veteran, if not Elite.

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This actually is exactly what I'd be looking for. A simple rule with a simple effect of allowing the JPB to occur but only in rare circumstances. My compliments!
Locutus9956 wrote:
Triggy wrote: The trouble here is that Drazi have Hull 6 ships almost across the board and AJP does the most damage where it's attacking Hull 5 (or even 4) ships. In the tourney my mate Ben opened two White Star jump points on a Brakiri fleet and destroyed 40% of the fleet (points wise) before his opponent even moved his second ship!

I think as simple a change as having AJPs scatter 2d6 (same as regular jump points) would keep it as a possible tactic but certainly one where the risks are significant compared to the possible benefits.
I should point out that I specifically stated I was jumping in on top of DARK HAWKS. Theyre missile cruisers and have only hull 5. I really do think people overreact to things a bit on these forums at times.

Any rule or weapon or ship that seems effective is automatically deemed broken (stealth, whitestats, original emines, ajps, scouts etc etc) and anything that seems weak in any area is deemed underpowered and useless (Posseidon supercarriers, fighters, Ancients and so on).

Now I dont want to sound like a hypocrite as I know Ive had my say on some of the topics above too but I dont believe I have every said that anythign was outright broken (Stealth could do with tweaking and ancients could use a slight boost (especially the Vorlons) but other than that I think the system is pretty good as is. I certainly dont think we need a major rules rewrite in any area.
My main problem is not that the rule is broken (it's powerful but not overwhealming most of the time IMO) but that it simply doesn't come close to representing what was seen on the show.
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always same problem

Postby Elessar » Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:48 am

It's boring to see people loosing a battle with someone using well his fleet powers and that the next day put a Subject upon those "uber invicible cheater fleet power" who was cowardly used by his adversary :(
(I am no talking about thread author, just on general feeling. Nearly every thread starting with a complaint about a battle)

AJP rules don't need to be broken down because some fleets have a minor strategic advantage or simply are some players jealous ?
So don't worry because with timepassing if we continue to broke the game in little pieces EVERY fleet will be exactly as others and we will finish by playing chess
The idea is to have differencies to make our battles full of surprising strategies, of "innovation".

As an AJP user I can tell that in 90% of the time I only scratch paint on hulls

The good side of this rule is that you can play as in the movie, sneaking aroung incoming fleet, jumping in the middle or on the back of enemy ships
I used it against Shadows, Vorlons, Humans, Drazi, Centauris and never got major advantage but I one game
And remember that you can't have ships in Hyper in most of the Scenariis.... and that someone with ships in Hyper move fewer ships on game giving HUGE advantage to his enemy
:wink:
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Re: always same problem

Postby animus » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:41 am

Elessar wrote: And remember that you can't have ships in Hyper in most of the Scenariis.... and that someone with ships in Hyper move fewer ships on game giving HUGE advantage to his enemy
:wink:
Good point. Keeping reserves limits your strength up front and in this game, a turn or two could mean everything!
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Postby Apachex » Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:58 am

Bottom Line Up Front: The JP Bomb rule seems stupid. Sorry, it smacks of gamesmanship and reduces the flavor of the game that much further. So it happens in "In the beginning" why wasn't it used on B5 in any number of episodes? There are several examples of sensors detecting "Jump Gates Forming" before they actually appear. What prevents the detecting ship from maneuvering out of the way in a 3D environment? Why would the Vorlons bother appearing to kill Deathwalker, when they could just smoke her with a jump point? Why would the Minbari assault earth when they could just open jump gates over their major cities? Babylon 4 appearing in the last shadow war? Nope JP Bombed by Shadow minions, taking that Valen dude with it. A Call to arms? Lets have the Minbari open their jump points w/in the death cloud.

Have I had it used against me? Not really. But its the kind of tactic that motivates me to declare that player the winner, and ask him to stand in the corner while the rest of us play for 2nd place.....
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If

Postby Elessar » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:07 am

If you want to fully understand AJP "point of view" you should play a Vorlon fleet. Without the possibility to be behind the enemy lines, to "pop" in space and strike, Vorlons can be easily beaten by anyone
why wasn't it used on B5 in any number of episodes
To do what ?
Did you ever play an attack on such a space station ?
What prevents the detecting ship from maneuvering out of the way in a 3D environment
Nothing but physics
Why would the Vorlons bother appearing to kill Deathwalker, when they could just smoke her with a jump point
Because the Walker ship was using the signal to open the gate when a Vorlon came to intercept
It's like an assassin who knows that a President is leaving a building via one particular door and is waiting there... And that was the only one door out for such a small vessel...
Why would the Minbari assault earth when they could just open jump gates over their major cities
Perhaps they will have done that. Who told you they weren't preparing that ? Damned crazy Minbaris ! :wink:
Babylon 4 appearing in the last shadow war? Nope JP Bombed by Shadow minions, taking that Valen dude with it.
Shadow minions don't use that in any movie at all.
And Valen was perhaps not very famous at this time
:wink:
A Call to arms? Lets have the Minbari open their jump points w/in the death cloud
I don't think you can open in a structure that huge and hard. You need to find the exact location of their command center like in the movie to take them down
And I don't think Minbari will sacrifice themselves for earth
:(
Have I had it used against me? Not really. But its the kind of tactic that motivates me to declare that player the winner, and ask him to stand in the corner while the rest of us play for 2nd place.....
That s not kind for him
Why should he be punish because of a "racial capibility" ?
Some rules will slightly change in 2 or 3 monthes from now with Armagedon, let's wait and see the new rules

I am sure that some questions will disapear then

To conclude I don't understand you when
The JP Bomb rule seems stupid. Sorry, it smacks of gamesmanship and reduces the flavor of the game that much further
Why ? What is the problem ?
If you compare Minbari to early earth ships they are deadly but years after years humans ships went in the good direction, upgraded with a lot of new technologies with finally receiving artificial gravity from the Minbari.
Let's wait a little more to see some ships with AJP

Oh they got it !
Isa ships !
So you can play Isa and see how important the hit and run tactics is vital for some specific fleets

But remember some things if you are playing against someone using AJP tactics
Don't put ships at less than 5" from each other, don't put them all in the exact same direction, and use that first turn when you should have a lot more ships than your enemy. And use hull 6 or 5 to resist them.
And the most important : you can't put ships in Hyperspace in every scenario, only a few....

I have seen a Vorlon fleet "poping" in the middle of a old style human fleet just to be shot down by volleys and volleys of small close range weapons, loosing the game in a turn matter

If someone open an AJG he needs to wait until next turn to enter...use that momentum wisely

I don't think that is an "uberpower", but it will change soon like stealth, small craft, etc
Let's wait a little more
:D
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Postby Locutus9956 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 8:30 am

If you cant beat a player just because he uses AJPs then youre doing something very wrong...

Example: 5pt Raid EA vs ISA.

For the sake of simplicity 5 Chronos vs 5 Whitestars. Both sides can keep up to half their ships in hyperspace (ie 2 ships each, but since Chronos are not jump capable they wont be doing so anyway).

What a stupid EA player will do: Group all the Chronos up nice and close so they can maximise their firepower on any whitestar that comes close... WHAM 2 ajps open right on top of the group doing 16 AD of triple damage to the Chronos. Or to put that another way on average about 3 hits on each of them doing 9 damage. Ok thats admittedly quite a blow to the EA forces at the start of the game but frankly they ASKED for it.

re: the specific 'why didnt they do this in....' questions:

What an EA player with any sense whatsoever will do: Split his forces up so that no two ships are to close together, they can still concentrate their fire reasonably well and this gives the ISA player a few choices: He can keep his ships in hyperspace hoping to jump in a bit later if the EA bunch up a bit, he can jump one ship with both for about 9pts on that one ship (probably) or he can jump 2 seperate ships for about 3 - 6 damage (but in this case hes splitting his whitestars up allowing the ea to pick on one at a time). If he holds his ships in hyperspace for later then hes effectively going 3 on 5 for the first turn at least and if he waits too long he limits his options of where he can jump in without hitting his own ships.

From this very simple example alone you can get that there is alot of tactical complexity allowed with this particular maneuver and I hardly call it gamesmanship.

And as Elessar quite rightly points out the Vorlons (until armageddon anyway) are royally screwed without AJPs

1: Minbari against earth, until season 3 none of the younger races had ever been crazy enough to even TRY jumping into an atmosphere, and besides why, oh WHY would the Minbari bothe when they can just blast away from orbit without any risk to themeselves anyway, they dont NEED a big surprise attack to bomb a city from orbit.

2: Vorlons jumping in on deathwalker. Opening a jump point is a little excessive when youre just trying to kill an unarmed shuttle. Also they wanted to kill deathwalker ALONE (opening a JP in a busy shipping lane is not really a good way to do a precission assasination...)

3: Shadow Thralls vs Babylon 4. I think you are missing the point of just how BIG the babylon stations are. The Blackstar took out a couple of battered earth ships (and it was firing on them too I might add) it would take ALOT more than that to take out a battle station like B4. (Also the shadows didnt know exactly where it was or for that matter who Valen was).

My point is that just because a tactic can be useful at times doesnt make it broken or overpowerd
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Postby l33tpenguin » Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:59 pm

Locutus9956 wrote: 3: Shadow Thralls vs Babylon 4. I think you are missing the point of just how BIG the babylon stations are. The Blackstar took out a couple of battered earth ships (and it was firing on them too I might add) it would take ALOT more than that to take out a battle station like B4. (Also the shadows didnt know exactly where it was or for that matter who Valen was).
Actually, game mechanics aside, this would be DEVISTATING to any space station. The wake of the jump point aside (the walls of the jump point are the dangerous part) Opening a jump point INSIDE of a space station would totally destroy it. Not only will the jump point be opening a hole between the atmosphere of the station and the void of hyperspace, it would also, because of its size (JPs really are massive) it would most likely end up suspending a good deal of the station inside hyperspace.

The idea is moot, though, with the shadows. They phase, not jump :)
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Postby blackphoenix » Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:07 pm

Locutus9956 wrote: 2: Vorlons jumping in on deathwalker. Opening a jump point is a little excessive when youre just trying to kill an unarmed shuttle. Also they wanted to kill deathwalker ALONE (opening a JP in a busy shipping lane is not really a good way to do a precission assasination...)

Execessive....yes. Down right frightening to the younger races? YES! :)
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?

Postby Elessar » Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:24 pm

Dear Pinguin

If I may.... I think it's impossible to open an AJG in a station because of the station's mass

The problem in the movie of jumping out HP is that you came from a dimension with different rules and open an hole in another "reality"

And more important noone has the technology to open such gates in the shadows side except for Drakh but they arrive to late

My theory ? I can't explain it in foreign language but it's around the mass of matter who try to enter the same reality as another huge mass. They should move aside (I hope !) from each other....

To complex to explain sorry
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Postby l33tpenguin » Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:47 pm

I think I get where you are going with that. Also consider, though, most of the inside of B5 (as well as the other babylon stations) is hollow ;) I bet you could fit a jump point inside there.
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Postby Locutus9956 » Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:13 pm

The question about shadows using it or not was not the issue if you go back and look at the original point it was shadow THRALLS (ie servant races). If the original point had suggested the shadows themselves doing it would have brought up the point that shadows dont jump that way myself ;).

As for it being terrifying to the younger races, why? Any of them can open a jump point on top of another ship its hardly a demonstration of Vorlon uber power (and if youre suggesting they just open the point and dont jump in then thats just silly as they wouldnt even know it WAS the Vorlons then...).

Simply put thought the main reason you dont see this more often in the show in my oppinion is as follows:

What is more fun/cool to watch?

A) A bunch of ships explode as an enemy fleet jumps into the middle. Battle over. Booooring.

or

B) 2 massive fleets jump in miles apart and proceed to beat the tar out of each other with all sorts of flashy lasers and lightning bolts and energy blasts and so on with fighters whizzing in between them and ships flying all over the place etc etc.....

:D
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