Jump Point Bombs

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Are Jump Point Bombs Cheesey?

Heck No, they're fair and flavorful! Advanced Races Rule!
16
30%
Swiss & Brie; It's a cheap tactic - should be banned.
15
28%
Has it's place, but may need to be re-thought.
22
42%
 
Total votes: 53
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Elessar
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ok !

Postby Elessar » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:43 pm

ok !

I use my Torotha do as much "chaos" in the middleof anennemuy fleet

Another good point, my friends know that, so they put all their ships all over the game plan. they get less concentrate power andthey are easier to destroy
:twisted:
Theyre a perfectly legitimate tactic imho and if you want to risk it go ahead. Theyre NOT the davastating game winner people make them out to be (especially if you just spread your fleet out a little).
I do agree !
:D
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Postby Triggy » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:45 pm

Locutus9956 wrote:Ive never really used it much, the one time I DID use it heavily was fighting drazi and I jumped them with a bunch of Totothas on top of their Darkhawks. To say the results were unspectacular would be something of an understatement.

I DID win the game but frankly it was the Torothas themselves who did the damage not the jump points.

AJPs CAN do damage but its no more effective than any other tactic, and in the case of the minbari it requires you to come in at close range (which reduces the effectiveness of your stealth and negates some of the usual huge range advantage, and as greg points out it splits your fleet up allowing the enemy to focus on one part.

As for 'taking out a large amount of fighters, if you know your opponent has AJP ships in hyperspace and clump up your fighters like that frankly you DESERVE to get jump bombed (incidentally fighters CAN dodge jump points as far as I know so tend to do ok anyway) (and while we're at it how is that any cheesier than Narns emimining the lot of them to oblivion anyway?).

Theyre a bit more useful when used with Vorlons or ISA but to be honests at the moment the Vorlons need all the help they can get and ISA arent really made any nastier for their use of them.

Theyre a perfectly legitimate tactic imho and if you want to risk it go ahead. Theyre NOT the davastating game winner people make them out to be (especially if you just spread your fleet out a little).
The trouble here is that Drazi have Hull 6 ships almost across the board and AJP does the most damage where it's attacking Hull 5 (or even 4) ships. In the tourney my mate Ben opened two White Star jump points on a Brakiri fleet and destroyed 40% of the fleet (points wise) before his opponent even moved his second ship!

I think as simple a change as having AJPs scatter 2d6 (same as regular jump points) would keep it as a possible tactic but certainly one where the risks are significant compared to the possible benefits.
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Dag'Nabbit
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Postby Dag'Nabbit » Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:49 pm

I would not make an AJP scatter more than a d6.
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Postby Triggy » Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:14 pm

Dag'Nabbit wrote:I would not make an AJP scatter more than a d6.
Just because it's advanced doesn't mean that the varying relationship between realspace and hyperspace is any different (which AFAIK is what the scatter represents).
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animus
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Postby animus » Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:17 pm

I see the bomb really killing scouts trying to break through stealth. Their hulls are usually weak so die horribly. Since the fleets that use stealth also have AJP it's a checkmate.

Maybe an AJP should be an automatic ram maneuver?

Maybe the victim ship should be allowed a CQ check to move?

Maybe a CQ check to avoid a 1-6" drift? (my favorite)
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Postby l33tpenguin » Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:25 pm

Adding something more (which could be happening in Arma) to use your AJP into a fleet could be an answer. Such as having to declare your AJP target beforehand (possibly writing it down on a piece of paper or giving it to a tourny official). Not even the minbari were able to just jump out of hyperspace at will wherever they wanted, but they could pick a location and pinpoint it before hand.
In 'In the Beginning' the minbari used a scout to lure the earth fleet to a location, only THEN did the Drala'fi jump out into the fleet. This could be applied in game as well, a specific location, like 42 inches from the left, 16 from the bottom, could be declaired on a card, or on the ship sheet itself that is in hyperspace, and the player would have to 'herd' the enemy to that location.
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Postby animus » Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:30 pm

Wouldn't the Jump Point Bomb be the ultimate weapon against immobile craft, such as our beloved Babylon 5? All an attacking fleet would need to do is stand out in hyperspace and open jump points on top of the target every 3 turns.

Seems to me that if you make a jump point on top of something, the menace should be at least as great to the ship coming in as the victim underneath.
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Postby Chernobyl » Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:13 pm

I'm sorry I don't remember whose suggestion it was but a while back an idea was posted that sounded pretty good to me. Make them both scatter, JP 2d6 and AJP 1d6 but subtract the crew quality from the distance.

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Postby Dag'Nabbit » Fri Apr 14, 2006 4:32 pm

Chernobyl wrote:I'm sorry I don't remember whose suggestion it was but a while back an idea was posted that sounded pretty good to me. Make them both scatter, JP 2d6 and AJP 1d6 but subtract the crew quality from the distance.

Chern
I like the idea of just subtracting the crew quality of the Jumping ship, simple. Though, that could really limit the type of deviation you would get. Since most CQ is at least 4, then most of the time there will be no deviation. Maybe you could decrease deviation by half the CQ of the Jumping ship.

I still prefer making a CQ check to see if you deviate or not (make it at least a 9) then roll to deviate if you fail.
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Postby markn » Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:15 pm

Keep in mind that multiple jump points can be opened over the same ship.
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Postby Target » Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:33 pm

Initiate Jump Point
When jumping into battle, AJP CQ7, if made doesn't scatter d6 and can fire that round. JP CQ 9, if made doesn't scatter d6 and can fire that round. Jump point damage is assigned at the end of movement phase.

This is our house rule, since most ships with AJP also have a flight comp it's still pretty easy for for them. Also means better crew can do better things with ordinary JP. The gap between AJP vs JP is cut to a reasonable level.
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Postby Target » Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:40 pm

Another idea is have an opposed check to avoid like ram.
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Postby animus » Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:56 pm

2:1 for a fix or tossing the rule entirely. Seems pretty clear (Matt :-) ).

Again, think of poor Babylon 5 getting jump bombed to destruction!

I don't remember where in the show they used a bomb. Could someone refresh my memory?

I remember the Shadows screwing up points and a jump gate catching a shadow, but that's it.
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Postby Dag'Nabbit » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:01 pm

There are seens with the Minbari jumping into the area and the jump point splitting a Hyperion (I think) in half.
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Postby prelude_to_war » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:07 pm

'In the Beginning' - the Mibari Black Star jumps in & takes out a Nova and the rear half of a Hyperion. You can also see a Starfury get caught in the vortex and explode (guess that's one flight worth?). Sheridan's narration notes that they've suffered from a number of hit & run attacks so it's likely these ships had already suffered some damage to their hulls.

As a Minbari player I've used AJP before and it didn't really have that much of an impact. As pointed out earlier you do have to hit without the benefit of AP or SAP. It's also not precise.

The real threat of AJP is the positioning it allows and the ability to fire on the turn the ship arrives. I can see it damaging lower PL ships (Hull 4 etc. or fighters) but hull 5/6 should be OK. Also, if you destroy a hull 4 ship with a jump gate, there's a chance it could explode and damage the AJPing ship. No player I know would want to subject themself to that unnecessary risk - especially hull 5 Minbari players.
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Postby Ranxerox » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:45 pm

The Shadows have the most potential for abusing the AJP. Think about it. Each of their fighters has and AJP and you get 3 flights for 1 patrol point. You can buy a dozen fighters fairly easily and keep them in hyperspace. Turn 1 you drop a dozen Jump Point Bombs. What adds insult to injury is that the fighters don't need to enter the jump points; they can stay in hyperspace. That way three turns later they can drop their bombs again!!! There is no way to target them in hyperspace. This is a complete exploit of the rules.

I agree with all of you that jump points should not cause damage.
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Postby Triggy » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:51 pm

Ranxerox wrote:The Shadows have the most potential for abusing the AJP. Think about it. Each of their fighters has and AJP and you get 3 flights for 1 patrol point. You can buy a dozen fighters fairly easily and keep them in hyperspace. Turn 1 you drop a dozen Jump Point Bombs. What adds insult to injury is that the fighters don't need to enter the jump points; they can stay in hyperspace. That way three turns later they can drop their bombs again!!! There is no way to target them in hyperspace. This is a complete exploit of the rules.

I agree with all of you that jump points should not cause damage.
All except for the fact that Shadows "phase in" rather than "jump in" so they don't actually create jump points therefore no damage is caused to anyone...this actually makes them the race with the least potential for abusing AJP :P
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Postby animus » Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:05 pm

The movies took liberties which didn't always mesh with the rest of the show.

I still think that the Bomb is just too powerful against a space station. How could anyone survive a fleet thus bombing them without even presenting a target? There has to be some way around it.

Maybe the Beginning attack had something to do with Earth's limited technology. More advance races could defend against it.
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Postby Target » Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:08 pm

prelude_to_war wrote:'In the Beginning' - the Mibari Black Star jumps in & takes out a Nova and the rear half of a Hyperion. You can also see a Starfury get caught in the vortex and explode (guess that's one flight worth?). Sheridan's narration notes that they've suffered from a number of hit & run attacks so it's likely these ships had already suffered some damage to their hulls.

As a Minbari player I've used AJP before and it didn't really have that much of an impact. As pointed out earlier you do have to hit without the benefit of AP or SAP. It's also not precise.

The real threat of AJP is the positioning it allows and the ability to fire on the turn the ship arrives. I can see it damaging lower PL ships (Hull 4 etc. or fighters) but hull 5/6 should be OK. Also, if you destroy a hull 4 ship with a jump gate, there's a chance it could explode and damage the AJPing ship. No player I know would want to subject themself to that unnecessary risk - especially hull 5 Minbari players.
I thought the ships came in the next turn but i could be wrong , plus they they get to move so the likelyhood of being hit by an exploding ship is pretty small.
It's the hull 4 ships that people are more concerned about eg Scouts die before they can do anything.
The fact that you don't have use the JP is another point, have another ship waiting in hyperspace to open one next round. But thats more tactical than cheese. Keeps the Opposition geussing which JP you will use since they stay open more than 1 round but since i don't have my rulebook handy not 100% sure.
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Postby Chernobyl » Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:26 pm

thats correct, you enter them the turn afterwords - the jump points are created at the end of your movement. so the turn after the bomb you'd exit hyperspace with your ship and chance getting blown to pieces.

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